Setting timing on Crusader Captain's Choice

[WALSHIE]

2001 EFI 5.7L Crusader

Changed Cap and Rotor and now engine will not idle below 2000rpms. Finished complete tuneup, new plugs and wires. Checked fuel pumps and filters.

Had a few folks look at it and they feel timing is advanced. Will only start with plenty of throttle then dies under 2000rpms. Checked wire order several times! Tried old cap and rotor, etc.

Crusader owner's manual says timing cannot be set. There is a wire harness plug for the timing labled "engine timing" and it has a LED that is illuminated. Did not use a scanner but there are no codes per LED other than "12" which means all is good.

Under distributor cap looks weathered. rust and salt. Checked and double checked for loose wires. Only thing I found suspicous was on top of distributor, under cap is a module (I assume electronic ignition) and there was a little oil under it.

Any clues? How does timing work on ECM?

 

[Sandy]

Is the "EFI" a TBI or MPI, and do you know if it is MEFI-3 or MEFI-4 ignition? ( I believe MEFI-4 like I have on my 2003 Crusader 5.7l MPI's was introduced sometime in 2001.)
I don't know much about the MEFI-3 version but on MEFI-4, timing , including base timing and advance , was completely controlled by the ECM and not user-adjustable.

Did that owner's manual come with that engine?

On my stock engines , turning the distributor base has NO effect on timing and now ONLY affects a different important parameter , "Cam Retard" angle which determines the position of the distributor rotor tip in relation to the dist. cap electrode inserts .
When optimized to spec it insures the rotor to cap spark gap is minimized and keeps dist. temps, ozone gas and required voltage also minimized and that keeps cap electrodes and rotor tip from deteriorating at undue rate.
Also the manual says if Cam Retard is out of spec, it " can cause serious performance problems."
That CR must be within +/- 2* of the spec which is 45* on my 2003's.
Cam Retard can only be read by a MEFI scan device (I use Rinda Technology's Marine Diacom software and alternately their Tech Mate handheld scanner I just used this evening to check CR after replacing both engines flat dist caps and rotors.)

I don't think an out-of spec Cam Retard angle will trip a code.

Is this an issue on one of twin engines?
--If so, is it the RH counter-rotating engine and does it's distributor by any chance use the FLAT "cross-over" caps?
----If so, the cylinder cable numbers (except for #1) molded into the cap top must be ignored- those are ONLY for the standard LH rotation engine( LH or RH rotation engines can be on either port or stbd side depending on transmission output rotation).
-------Again, IF it happens to be a flat crossover cap , whether on a RH or LH rotation engine , the plug wire sequence around the cap is not the same as the firing order :
( Dist. shaft & rotor rotation is the same CW on both std LH rotation engine and counter -rotation RH engines_

LH firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2, but sequence around the flat "crossover" cap ( still going CW around cap)is 1-8-2-4-6-Coil-5-3-7, with # 1 being farthest away on left side.

RH firing order is 1-2-7-5-6-3-4-8 , but CW cap sequence is 1-2-8-7-6-Coil-3-5-4, with # 1 still farthest away on the left.

If you don't have flat crossover cap(s), just use the LH or RH ( as appropriate) firing order around the cap.

It might pay to triple check all the way from the cap to the sp. plug to confirm routing is correct to maintain correct firing order. Any chance a sp plug was cracked/comporomised during installation , or was the under 2000 rpm stalling manifesting prior to changing plugs?

*-> Also make sure the IAC (or other control or sensor) connector & wires were not compromised while you were replacing parts. A scan tool would allow you to read output for that parameter to compare against normal specifications listed in the MEFI diagnostic manual. ( I just notice the same MEFI-4 Diagnostic Manual I purchased from Crusader as a $100 hard-copy when I purchased the engines can be read in full free on the pirate4x4 dot com "Tech Garage" section.

But your mention of wire harness plug labeled "engine timing" sounds rather like the type used with the Delco Voyager EST electronic distributors used with carbed/ non ECM engines . The had a connector that had TIME on one side and RUN on the other , so one 1/2 of the male-female connection would be plugged back in temporarily turned over to set base timing only with advance momentarily disabled. This doesn't sound like your problem.

The LED light on the connector however, sounds like someone ...may... have left a Rinda CodeMate code reader connected to the engine's Diagnostic Link Connector (DLC). That shouldn't hurt anything I wouldn't think but you might try removing the LED side and plugging back into the original DLC cap connector tethered nearby. Can you see anything that says Codemate?
--If so , the (setting base-)timing function might not be applicable to your EFI engine.

 

[WALSHIE]

Sandy, thanks for your response. I read your previous responses on this subject:
- Both engines are LH and reverse is handled through the ZF Hurth transmissions
- I have a conventional cap, not the flat top
- Cap is Mercury 808483K 1 for "Delco" ignition
- I triple-checked wires by having two mechanic friends check proper routing!!!
- Not sure if I have TBI or MPI but there are 8 injectors on the top.
- Not sure of MEFI 3 or 4
- Owner's manual is on boat...can't check.
- I have a friend with the scanning tool, he is going to check it out today.
- Under 2000rpm occured after I changed cap and rotor only. I WAS going to do an in water tuneup so I pulled cap and rotor and one plug to match at the marine store. I put old plug and new cap/rotor in and this is when issue started. I tried old cap, etc. Decided to replace all plugs and wires with new as I was desperate. I looked, others looked for a loose wire. I did find a drop of oil under the dist cap, under the electronic ignition "star" which I assume tells the coil when to fire. Is that part packed in oil and maybe defective?

On the timing wiring harness, this is where the LED is which shows a code of "12" indicating diagnostics working and no other code. There IS a two pin connector that has "TIME" and "RUN" on it. It is currently in the RUN position. Do I turn it to TIME and set the base timing at idle? (If so, what RPM and what setting?). I'd have to manually turn distributor first as she won't even idle.

I will look for the Codemate. The harness matches the working engine but the working engine does not have LED illuminated.

Thank you very much for your replies. Sounds like there are several variations to these engines, frustrating.

http://www.marinepartssource.com/crusaderpb/350xmp17.asp

 

[Sandy]

If you have 8 injectors your engines are clearly MPI (multi-port injection), as TBI would just have 1 or 2 injectors in the Throttle Body.
I'm kind of surprised there is a TIME/RUN connector on that MPI engine but that only means I'm not familiar with your setup that seems to me to be a bit of a compromise between newer and older ignition systems.

But for starters I'd suggest a few things to consider:

-1st confirm the #1 cable on the cap is actually on the correct #1 cap post. That's probably been done a couple times already. Since your engines are both standard LH you can compare the caps, cables and that TIME/RUN connector. Is the distributor clamp by any chance loose enough you can turn the base by hand, so it might have gotten out of time when dealing with the cap?

-Use an inductive timing light to see if all cylinders have spark by putting the pickup on each successive sp. plug cable when you can keep it running at 2000+. On your engine it might be possible to check timing with a timing light on the dampener if you have timing notch plate there.

- It doesn't sound like the TIME/RUN connector is inadvertently reversed as that would simply prevent timing advance and only affect higher RPM , not idle. But yes, distributors with that connector must have base timing set at a specific RPM while in TIME position and as far as I know that would be done the conventional way of turning the dist. base and likely using a timing light, then rechecking timing after the base clamp is re-secured since it usually changes a little when tightening. Then return the connector to RUN configuration.
The timing BTDC and RPM spec should be listed in your manual if it is the correct one for your engines' year. When you confirm that spec you might label that next to the distributors. I think 10* BTDC at 750RPM in neutral for setting base timing was common but definitely check your manual as that could be way off for yours. FWIW,I'm not sure what ECM-controlled idle timing is for my MPI's as displayed on the scan device, but when warmed up it auto-regulated idle RPM at 640.

But I would still encourage checking that Idle Air Control (IAC) device and connections, as a fault there can prevent operation at idle speeds. If the wires and connector all look normal and same as on the good engine, you might try swapping IAC's. Just note that on some engines the ECM may take 15 minutes or so of running to "learn" the input and responses from what it considers a new-to-it IAC . It should run at lower rpms but might not be steady or smooth right away.

- When you mentioned the LED light and that it indicated a CODE 12 -all OK, it sounded like that LED was on a CodeMate but perhaps your Crusader just had that LED code light built in.

Hopefully your friend with the MEFI scan device has the proper cable adapter for your DLC connector. Mine DLC is simply the GM 10 pin connector I believe.

(Disclaimer: I'm just a boater...- just throwing out suggestion I hope might help in some fashion, but may only be worth what you are paying for them or a little less.)

 

[WALSHIE]

Yes, this setup is a hybrid, I can't find a comprehensive manual. All wires and settings were compared between the two engines.

I will check the IAC and make sure air plate is not stuck open...I should have done that. I will also check each wire with timing light, need someone at helm to help do that.

The owner's manual I have simply says timing cannot be set but the engines do have the marks for setting timing. And there is the "run vs timing" plug so I'm guessing I should time the damn thing. A few think timing is advanced...I assume I should rotate ignition to the left a hair and try to get it to idle down.

I will let you know what the diagnostic tool says and YES, friend has a few different adapters for the tool.

Thanks for your help so far, I will keep you posted.

 

[WALSHIE]

Thanks very much for all of your time Sandy.
My problem was indeed the timing! I learned a ton about my engines, their older Delco distributors, etc.
Worked on boat tonight. After finding out timing light is not working, we simply dialed her in by ear... the old fashioned way... and she purrs.

Pulling boat in morning!

 

[Sandy]

Big "attaboy"!