1989 Sunrunner 280

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Al (and everybody else),

I was wondering if you had any advice on Sun Runner boats. My boss Charles is trying to help a friend out West who wants a cabin cruiser at low cost to bum around in with his family. I am trying to help a friend (and fellow RO Chris Walsh (walshie)) sell his boat since he now has a nice big yacht and doesn't need his little 28 anymore (damn, how'd everybody get bigger boats than me now!!!)

Of course I want to do right by both people. It seems to me, from looking at the pics of Chris' boat and knowing the pedigree, that this is a good opportunity for someone and I'm surprised that no one has bought this boat yet. Granted it seems to need some work like the swim platform, some of the rails, and perhaps some upholstery, but IMHO that's relatively minor.

Unfortunately, with the boat on land there isn't much we can do to test it out right now. And quite frankly since we're not talking about a huge investment I hate to bust Chris' chops. Is there anything particular about Sun Runners of this vintage we should be concerned of? You know, like perhaps Chris didn't notice and the transom is about to collapse or something [:-scared] ??? Like I said, I just want to make sure this deal works out for all parties involved...

At first glance at least, Charles really thinks this is the boat he wants to recommend for his friend. Chris is asking $13K, Charles feels that, especially without a sea trial, $10K is a more reasonable number, so that he can put some cosmetics into the boat before shipping it off to Utah for his friend. Any thoughts???

Here's the link:

http://www.crotonyachtclub.com/forsale/sunrunner/index.htm

PS - Chris, if you read this, that's okay! Feel free to respond with your thoughts. I'm hoping to get this done for you quickly. I just have to allay any concerns Charles has about making this recommendation for his buddy. He's basically going with my word on this (gulp!), which means that if I screw this up I can pi$$ off THREE people at once. Lucky me :) ...
 
Hi Pete, I surveyed this vessel before Chris made the purchase years ago. He has gone throw it and updated alot on this vessel. This boat is worth every penny of $13,000. Chris Walsh is only offering this boat at this price because hes a two boat owner right now. Im sure he won't have a problem getting rid of it comes spring. If this person is interested in this boat, they better jump on it before its gone!
 
Pete, I am the original owner of the boat, I bought it new and eventually sold it to Walshie. I know that I was meticulous regarding maintenance, and the Chris was too. That boat is built like a rock, no history of rot. Top quality components were used and replacements/repair parts are readily available. I have the original sales brochure, if you need any specifics.

This is a great deal on that boat.
 
Pete, sounds like your boss is trying to have it both ways. He has a go-fast priced about 40K above the going market; he has a chance to broker a deal for a boat with a fair market value and he wants to knock off 20% of the asking price? If Chris had priced the boat at $17K would he be more willing to pay $13K? In other words is he looking to pay a fair price for the boat or does he just want to be able to say he knocked the seller down a few thousand?

It's not like you are dealing with strangers here, or people so far away you are never going to run into them. And Chris has forever been asking questions when he tackles some maintenance project, and CYC has had guys there since the late 50's who knew their way around boats. There is a certain amount of risk when buying a boat, new or used. Seems to me Charlie might want to look inside himself first before trying to chisel down the price of this particular boat. You may be going out on a limb trying to help, but all things considered the chain saw you are carrying is further out on the limb, so you are safe.
 
Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate that...

I don't think Charlie is trying to be too tough on Chris. He's simply trying to make a fast decision, without benefit of a sea trial or anything other than a quick lookover (which he hasn't even done yet!) and basically recommend to his friend that he buy this boat based on essentially my word that Chris and Mike before him aren't insane maniacs. Then again, if you read our posts on NBR, you might wonder [:-mischievous]...

What I'm getting at is that it seems reasonable for the price to be lower under those circumstances. Certainly if Chris wants to wait till spring, pay for commissioning, do a proper sea trial, etc. then he has every right to ask for the higher price. And if we're not able to get a deal done then I surely hope somebody comes around and gets it instead...

The other thing is, quite frankly, boat sales are in the toilet. Don't believe anything you hear otherwise. Jimmy from Pennybridge told me today that Soundings (trade only version) says retail sales are off 60% from a year ago so far this season. That's pretty bad. As Mike alluded to above, Charlie has had his Formula on the market for awhile, and that boat is absolutely mint with $80K of high performance upgrades plus having had the benefit of factory technicians crawling all over it each and every time Charlie tried some performance experiment with it. And that boat isn't selling either. You all remember the Hell I went through with my other Carver - I gave the damn boat away for $2000...

Oh well, these guys are big boys, I'll let them figure out what price it should be between them. My big question was to find out more on the boat's pedigree. I had forgotten that Mike had owned it before Chris. I'll be sure to pass that info on to Charlie. Mike, if you have any additional specs or info can you fax/email it to me? The marina fax is 845-628-3536 and email is sales at mahopacmarina.com...

PS - just so you know, Charlie doesn't have a financial stake in this sale and neither do I. He's trying to help a friend named Tom Woods who lives in Utah. Tom is a good ol' boy who loves to make custom driveshaft components for off road vehicles but now he wants to dabble in boating. So he's asking us to help him get his start. If Tom buys this boat from Chris then Charlie plans to spend some time, at his expense, to help ensure the boat is all ready to be placed on a trailer and sent out West, which will include all the cosmetic repairs that Chris has already told me about. Hopefully it will all work out and everybody will be happy. If not, oh well, I did it again...
 
Pete-I almost bought that boat and probably would have except for the hassle and cost of getting it from NY to IL (at this time for a variety of reasons just a PITA for me to do) and I found a similar deal local in IL. I did a lot of reasearch on the Sun runners and they are a well made boat. I know boat sales are not great right now, but where else are you going to find a 2 owner boat where you know (at least on this forum) both owners. From my perspective subject to survey of course, The boat is basically turn key.
 
Thanks for that observation, Glenn. I appreciate that so many of you were able to share your insights on this matter. It is really helpful!!!
 
FWIW Observations on Boat Sales on west coast of Florida. SLOW,Slow,slow..The combination of higher auto/home insurance and local property taxes seems to have removed the $100K dual income family from any new market. Some activity, growing I believe, in well-conditioned used boats.

Mega buyers buy anything they want at all times.

This boat should sell in a flash!
 
I hope so for Chris' sake, if not to my boss' friend than to someone else. I also agree wholeheartedly with this statement...

"The combination of higher auto/home insurance and local property taxes seems to have removed the $100K dual income family from any new market"

...except I honestly feel it applies to used boats too, especially older ones that are low cost, like Chris'. The only boats that are moving right now are late model cherry used examples, which erstwhile new boat buyers are taking instead of the brand new one...

Case in point: When I got sick last year we were seriously looking at some 33 foot Carvers. All old, early 80s models that are listed for rather low prices, say $20-30K. After I got out of the hospital my wife felt sorry for me and said, "ok, go ahead and get the boat" and so I went (staggered is more like it) out to see a 33 Voyager in CT that I really, really wanted. Well the boat wasn't perfect but like usual I saw the possibilities. They wanted $24,900. At first look I told the guy I felt $21,500 was more like it, and he said he thought the buyer would accept that. Then I brought the Mrs. up to see the boat, and to my chagrin she was unimpressed. She felt it needed $5000 more in work before she'd even consider sleeping on it. So I tried re-negotiating the deal to $18K. Well the guy said "no way, a deal is a deal." So I said "see ya." Well, that boat is still for sale a year later on boats.com, listed at $24,900. Seems to me he should have done his best to work something out with a potential buyer (me) when he had one sitting there...

Not that I mind, personally, because to tell you the truth I made that offer at a weak moment. I was too sick at that time, barely recovering from my heart attack, to ever maintain that 33 footer. I could barely get a coat of wax on my 21. We had decided to give up on the big boat notion when a 28 Carver showed up on ebay near where I live, being sold by a recently widowed owner. It was close enough so I went to take a look. Nobody else bid more than $10,000 for the boat, she wanted $13-14K, We haggled and I told her my final offer was $11,700. She was smart enough to take me up on it. I had the check to her the next day. I found out later she had been trying to sell the boat for awhile as her husband had passed away, and it had been a very trying experience. I probably seemed like a Godsend to her, and quite frankly that boat has been a Godsend to us - the right size (yes I had to swallow my pride over not getting the 33 footer) and in good enough condition that we could enjoy it last year without landing me back in the hospital trying to maintain it. We are all looking forward to boating season this year!!!

So the moral of the story, I guess, is (1) don't let a buyer walk away in this economic climate, and (2) the best deal is one that helps both parties - in my case the seller got out of debt, and I got a nice boat for my family, and neither side felt it got rooked...
 
Geez, I actually missed this posting believe it or not...I haven't been in this forum in a bit.

Thanks guys for coming to my defense regarding the price. Pete, don't get so worked up, $10k won't do it so it's not an issue. I insist on a Sea trial to make sure everything is working prior to delivery, I don't want any surprises. He can forgoe a sea trial if he wants but I'm not going to pay him for that option as I have total confidence in this boat. Besides, launching for a sea trial shouldn't be a problem. I already have the props back from their annual tune-up and bought the OD paint. She'll be ready to go.

I understand the market is in a bad way but I also realize $13k is a great price. I've already turned down offers of $10k from bottom fishers and my response was, "Is it that you really think she's worth $10k or do you want to score a great deal?". When I lowered the price to $13k, I wanted to move her fast before winterizing and shrinkwrapping. I considered raising the price but still want to get rid of her.

I'll come down a bit on the price but not $3k as that's almost 25% off a great deal.

While I didn't want to talk "glenncal1" out of the deal, I did ask if it really "makes sense" to ship a boat far away. With you guys being in the industry, it might but normally, I'd say go local.

In regards to the quality of the boat, I have pictures of me and the family down at the Jersey Shore and up at the Catskill Creek from last summer.... I bet Mike has pics of his trips from Block Island to Toronto...a picture is worth a thousand words....even if the words are from Me, Mike and Al Prisco.

Have Charlie give me a call if he wants to look at the boat or discuss the price. Thanks for your help on this.
 
Thanks for the info, Chris. I'll let Charlie know. I hope he's able to do something with you, but if not I surely hope you sell it to somebody soon!!!

"I understand the market is in a bad way but I also realize $13k is a great price. "

It probably is, but remember there are a lot of people out there who think the same thing about their boats. I say this because I've been there, as you know. I STILL can't believe I gave my other Carver away for $2000. It took me a couple of years to get rid of it at THAT price. That drove me nuts every time I peered into the engine rooms of boats that were offered for $20K and looked like $h!t compared to mine - which you could have eaten off of. Even the boat I eventually bought is not as well maintained mechanically as my older one was. It was a source of pride for me all the years I owned it. But nobody cared when I was trying to sell the damn thing...

As I mentioned, that 33 Voyager that I looked at a year ago is still sitting there forlornly for sale. They should have listened to me when I was in a weak moment - I'd have been stuck with a boat that was probably over my head but at least they'd have gotten $18 grand for it - now they've got zilch, and a moldy boat with cobwebs in it...

Anyway, sorry for the gloom and doom. It just gets to me because I had such a bad experience trying to sell my boat. Of course, I could turn that around and say I got a good experience when I bought the new(er) one, since at that point the buyer's market was in my favor and I got a great price several thousand dollars below book value...
 
A public negotiation for a boat with others chiming in!?!?!? Fun thread! Interesting how buyers and sellers always have adifferent perspective.

In this case, both sides have very valid points....it IS nice to get a boat from a known person who maintained it well. However, you CAN certainly find well-maintained boats from strangers and it's not too hard to tell. On the other hand, a bird in the hand.....favors the buyer offering to buy it now.

If I was selling, I'd patiently wait until spring/summer when more buyers come out. Yeah, if it isn't getting near asking price by early summer, I'd drop a bit, but certainly not now. It's winterized and stored so those costs are "sunk".
 
If I was selling, I'd patiently wait until spring/summer when more buyers come out. Yeah, if it isn't getting near asking price by early summer, I'd drop a bit, but certainly not now. It's winterized and stored so those costs are "sunk".

My thoughts exactly ;)
In fact, that's what I told the guy on the phone yesterday....here's "today's" bottom line. Call me again in four weeks.

I agree, public negociation is weird but hey, I'm going to be up front and honest as I have nothing to hide. It will go to the highest bidder in the next couple of months, plain and simple as I have to move it...for a respectable price.

Fellow HRCCers warned me about owning two boats. It's not the financial drain, but the distraction that's annoying. It makes it hard to fully enjoy the new boat. I stopped advertising as I was tired of showing the boat...I wish I had a way to pre-qualify tire kickers. Not including this person here (who I doubt will work out considering the location), I have four guys who are interested at different levels. All from personal relationships, not advertising (as is the case with Pete's friend). One is a friend of my brothers who wants to look further, two are club members and have boats to sell but have been on this boat before. The final one is nervous about moving up from a 16'er to a 28'er. It's tiresome dealing with all these flakes...I need someone that will simply pull the trigger and move on. This is not rocket science but I guess when you sell for $13k, you get alot of entry level players.

Oh well, I guess it all balances out in the end as my last boat sold in one day and the buyer was eager to take delivery early March.
 
Well, at least now you know why brokers take 10%. Why not have someone list it for you? At $1,300 bucks....it will save you alot of aggrevation and save on listing costs.
 
Chris, you have an E-mail from me...

BTW those two Carvers are perfect illustrations of my point above. They are quite nice, actually, and its funny that the two of them are for sale at the same time. I took the Liberty of posting a link on the Carver 28 web site and forum (yes, there really is one, hosted by a guy in Canada, for enthusiasts of such boats!). I noticed that the one boat has a for sale sign on it asking $8000. It also says the boat is a '79. Its NOT. It is a '78 or older, because it has the old fashioned wooden window frames. The aluminum frames made their debut for '79 in the newly redesigned Mariner series, which is the same as the '80 that I bought now...

I don't know what his engine room looks like, but they're likely not as nice as what I had, just because NOBODY seems to have had an old Carver with as clean an engine room as I had. Regardless, the fact that both of those boats have those old leaky wooden window frames puts the actual sales price somewhere around $5-6K, in my humble opinion of course. If I'm wrong and one of these boats is a gem then I'd suggest your friend put up as many pics as possible to illustrate as to why it's worth more...
 
I'm almost certain the wooden framed window was added. I know the local carpenter dude had worked on them and I believe he added the windshield but he might have only re-finished them. Believe it or not, the bilge in the one with the wooden framed window is very, very clean. At the beginning of last year, the owner pulled both engines and transmissions, painted them, changed misc gaskettes and put them back. You might have a run for your money there! I don't think last year's price still applies, I should ask them though.
 
Good for him if that's the case. As for the windows, from looking at the pics they look like standard issue Carver windows of that vintage to me, Chris. You can tell a '79 because the cabin windows are more square in the back and the fiberglass "quarter" panel (for want of a better term) is smaller. Those boats are definitely older models, from 1976-1978...

BTW Charles wanted me to come on here and say "thanks" since it appears you guys have made a deal. He was very impressed by BoaterEd and the level to which people participate on here, and all the advice and info people shared with regard to this boat and its owner, too, I might add :)...
 
Pete, thanks for your help. I owe you a beer, no that won't do, you don't drink. GC to Barnes and Noble...not good for your heart. How about some cigars, oh, you don't smoke. Omaha steaks, that's right, you're watching your diet....geez, you must have one vice...please don't remind me you're Greek...I won't go there!!

I fully expect the deal to go through as Charles seems like a no-nonsense kind of guy.

I'll double check the years of those carvers...you really do know your boats!

Thanks again!
 
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