4G network possible interference with GPS

PJ

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I am hoping that Billy from wireless one will comment on this. All of the articles I have read say that there is interference with GPS systems. It looks like only automobile GPS and plane GPS systems have commented. Why has the marine industry not commented? Will these transmitters cause outages on the coast? I don't have the expertise to evaluate the possible problems this would cause but it seems that it could cause issues in coastal navigation.
This is the link that stated my thinking process>
http://www.saveourgps.org/
Recently, a company called LightSquared applied to the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) for a waiver allowing it to repurpose the satellite spectrum immediately neighboring that of the Global Positioning System (GPS) for use in extremely high-powered ground-based transmissions. This has caused serious concern within the GPS industry and user community since this planned use is fundamentally incompatible with existing GPS uses. Initial technical analyses have shown that the distant, low-powered GPS signals would receive substantial interference from high-powered, close-proximity transmissions from a network of ground stations.

The consequences of disruption to the GPS signals are far reaching, likely to affect large portions of the population. Therefore, it is imperative that the LightSquared system not be deployed unless it can be conclusively guaranteed that the GPS system is fully protected from radio interference. The problem LightSquared's plans pose and additional steps the FCC needs to take are explained below.

LightSquared plans to transmit radio signals that would be one billion or more times more powerful than GPS signals as received on earth, potentially causing severe interference and rendering useless millions of GPS receivers - including those used by U.S. Federal and Local Government agencies, first responders, airlines, agriculture, and everyday consumers in their cars and on hand-held devices.

•Initial technical analyses show that GPS signals, which are low-powered and emanate from distant satellites, would receive substantial interference from LightSquared's network of high-powered, close-proximity ground station transmissions.
•LightSquared's planned use of these high-powered terrestrial networks in the frequency immediately adjacent to the GPS frequency is unproven and unprecedented and may be found to be fundamentally incompatible with existing GPS uses.
•Any technical arguments regarding the ability of the two systems to co-exist are unproven and require independent, authoritative, verified and thorough analysis and testing prior to any transmissions being made.

The usual FCC process is to conduct extensive testing followed by approvals. For LightSquared, the process was approve first, then test. The unusual waiver recently granted to LightSquared allows it to use its satellite spectrum for high-powered ground-based broadband transmissions if the company can demonstrate that harmful interference could be avoided.

•Issues of interference should have been addressed before the waiver was granted.
•The waiver was granted just two months after it was requested. Even with such a short window, the U.S. GPS Industry Council (USGIC), the National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA) - along with some federal departments, concerned state and local governments, public safety authorities, and GPS commercial users - all voiced strong objection to LightSquared's plan to reposition the spectrum.
•The FCC's conditional waiver puts LightSquared in the conflicting position of assessing whether or not its own system will interfere with GPS transmissions.
 
I have to be careful knowing all parties involved, I have no idea how LQ2 terrsstrial base stations can not affect GPS systems. There is a technical group working with the FCC and Lightsquared to prove and address issues as they arise. I think numerous problems will arrise with high powered land based towers and transmitters operating in the same band as the GPS satellites. Lightsquared could operate it's satellite network but I am not so sure about the land based versions. Even Garmin has come out against the waiver. I think it is a horrible idea Baltimore will be one of the 1st five cities Lightsquared will build a terrestrial network in the US. They are in negotiations with Sprint to use their next generation small form SDR base stations. Me I think it will be bust loaded with interference problems.
Bill
 
I still don't get the wholesale business plan LightSquared has?
Bill
 
The USAF is concerned. Obama loves it. FCC ready to grant waiver. This cannot be good.

Follow the Money?
 
Bill, thanks, and I can't see the LightSquad Business plan either. I think this is one of the good ideas turning bad.
 
All the other carriers 4G will have no affect on GPS, LightSquared probably will cause GPS interference, I have a hard time understanding why they were given a waiver?
I have seen properly configured WiFi Access Points effect XM/SIRIUS weather receivers on vessels if they get within 50 feet of the WiFi sector antennas and there we are talking about close frequency receiver overload, not same frequency overload.
Bill
 
Let me see if I've got this straight; a company wants to build high powered G4 transmitters that operate on the SAME frequencies as GPS and there is even a discussion of interference? I'm no engineer but even I understand that concept. Who the hell is granting licneses at the FCC these days? What ever happend to that law that an device cannot cause interference with other transmissions? This will affect both civilian and military uses of the GPS system.
 
It's is a different modulation scheme than GPS data but wait, the problem will be a near/far overload to existing and possibly future GPS devices.
I'll take a look at the licensing to see if the GPS band is their uplink not downlink but either way there still will be problems.
Bill
 
The new LTE entrant will use a mixture of spectrum in the L-band, 2GHz band, 1.4GHz band and 1670-75MHz band, along with substantial vendor financing, according to analyst Tim Farr of TMF Associates.

Farrar expects the network will initially use 23MHz of spectrum, including 8 MHz of 1.4 GHz terrestrial spectrum, 5 MHz of 1.6 GHz terrestrial spectrum (1670-75MHz) and 10 MHz of (SkyTerra’s) MSS/ATC L-band spectrum. Through a cooperation agreement with Inmarsat and associated waivers of the Commission’s ATC rules, by 2013 Harbinger will have access to an additional 30 MHz of ATC spectrum (in the L-band).
 
GPS
Band Frequency
(MHz) Phase Original Usage Modernized Usage
L1 1575.42
10.23×154 In-Phase (I) Encrypted Precision P(Y) code
Quadrature-
Phase (Q) Coarse-acquisition (C/A) code C/A, L1 Civilian (L1C), and
Military (M) code
L2 1227.60
10.23×120 In-Phase (I) Encrypted Precision P(Y) code
Quadrature-
Phase (Q) Unmodulated carrier L2 Civilian (L2C) code and
Military (M) code
L3 1381.05
10.23×135 Used by Nuclear Detonation (NUDET)
Detection System Payload (NDS);
signals nuclear detonations/
high-energy infrared events.
Used to enforce nuclear test
ban treaties.
L4 1379.913
10.23×1214/9 (No transmission) Being studied for additional
ionospheric correction
L5 1176.45
10.23×115 In-Phase (I) (No transmission) Safety-of-Life (SoL) Data signal
Quadrature-
Phase (Q) Safety-of-Life (SoL) Pilot signal
 
They are not on the same frequency as GPS recievers however they are very close to the L1 GPS band so it will be a near/far reciever overload problem for consumer GPS type devices. The L1 band is primarily used for consumer and commercial GPS equipment.
I can see big front end overload problems especially for vehicle navigation, E-911 location based chipsets in cellphones if they got near some of LightSquared's Terrestrial based L Band transmitters. This assumes the L band will be used for downlink purposes at LightSquared's base stations.
Bill
 
the latest I have seen is that lightSquared is saying that the GPS recivers are not selective enough to eliminate interferance. With this statement it becomes the GPS reciever issue?

Bill I knew you would know alot about this. I think I am now in information overload.

thanks again
 
Here is more information that we probably want, but it starts off indicating that legacy recievers will have issues.

quote:

Although the results vary among devices, the overall conclusion is that transmissions in the 10 MHz band at the top of LightSquared’s downlink frequencies — the band nearest to the GPS frequencies— will adversely affect the performance of a significant number of legacy GPS receivers.





I have no idea what this means to coastal travel, and what the deliniation is for legacy.

Public notice for comments issued by FCC:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=7021690495
 
quote:

Originally posted by boatbum

I have no idea what this means to coastal travel, and what the deliniation is for legacy.






My guess: legacy = affordable
 
Good one! :D Actually from what I have read so far it seems like none of the manufacturers have done anything, and the cost per unit to correct it is about a nickle.
I'm hoping this is a moot point off shore but who knows.
 
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