Carver 3607: port engine stumbling/missing

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rjcress

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Jan 28, 2008
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29301
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Once warmed up my port 1986 Crusader model 350 / 454ci develops a miss. It shows on the engine sync gauge as a rapid deflection towards the strong engine. In the video below it is pretty bad. It starts as a sporadic, random miss. Then progresses to a more persistent miss. Increasing RPM makes it worse (video was shot after running at 3k rpm for about 30 seconds). If continued operation, engine dies.

When this first happened late in the summer of 2012 we changed the spark plugs and it ran great for another 10 hours or so. Just changed the plugs before taking a 20 minute ride at idle from my dock to the pump-out station dock. I let it idle around 800 rpm for 10 minutes before leaving the dock and all looked great. Idled away from the dock for about 5 minutes, then increased to 2k, 2.5k, and 3k rpm for about 2 minutes each. After about 1.5 min at 3k rpm the engine sync started showing some misses on the port engine. So, throttled back to about 1k and stayed at or below 1k back to the pump out station, then back to our slip.
The engine never died or felt like it was losing power. At the dock I idled it for several minutes and the port engine was missing every 10 seconds or so. Ran it up to 3k rpm for 5 seconds, then back to idle and took the video below.

Not sure where to start to sort this out.
Ideas?

https://plus.google.com/107462996218604913823/posts/VmsHR9MYdtS
 
Check spark advance, I've replaced many distributors on Crusaders because of rusted springs and weights.
 
quote:
Originally posted by JimPend

Check spark advance, I've replaced many distributers on Crusaders because or rusted springs and weights.

Click to expand...


Thanks, Jim.
I've been considering replacing with electronic distributor kit, like this:
http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/mm5/merc..._Code=EDM550002&NOSHOW=YES&rnum=BPIDELCOESTV8

Seems pretty pricey, but I've read a lot of threads on boatered where people rave about them.

I will start with reading about the distributor and how to diagnose rusty spring and weight issues. If anyone has a link to good posts or web pages to help me understand distributors, please share. I've searched on here, but am having trouble finding a succinct and accurate summary with actionable troubleshooting info.

What do you think about just swapping in a kit like the Delco EST kit?
The USAF trained me as a jet aircraft mechanic, but I don't claim to really understand the nuances of auto/marine engine systems.
 
I didn't use a kit, the local parts shop had Prestolite distributors on sale for $150 and 12 volt coils $20. Just replaced the whole thing. I don't think a kit replaces the advance anyway. Find a buddy that knows how to drop a distributor in.
 
You said it didn't feel like it was missing. Are you sure it's missing and not a bad connection.

It also sounds like the condenser is going out.
 
quote:
Originally posted by jtybt15

You said it didn't feel like it was missing. Are you sure it's missing and not a bad connection.

It also sounds like the condenser is going out.

Click to expand...


Good question.
At first, it doesn't feel or sound like it is missing. I only see it on the engine sync gauge at first. As it gets worse I eventually see it on the tach as well. When it gets bad enough that the engine is about to die, the missing is obvious in terms of audibly and felt power loss.
 
You might get more response on the engines forum as this isn't a Carver issue.
 
quote:
Originally posted by rjcress

quote:
Originally posted by jtybt15

You said it didn't feel like it was missing. Are you sure it's missing and not a bad connection.

It also sounds like the condenser is going out.

Click to expand...


Good question.
At first, it doesn't feel or sound like it is missing. I only see it on the engine sync gauge at first. As it gets worse I eventually see it on the tach as well. When it gets bad enough that the engine is about to die, the missing is obvious in terms of audibly and felt power loss.

Click to expand...


We experienced the same some years back and it turned out to be the condenser.
 
I had the exact same symptoms. Took me several seasons to figure it out, but ended up being the distributors. Replaced them with complete electronic distributors like those DST one's you have the link and finally fixed the issue! Your other option to test out the theory is to replace the points and condensers, re-time it and see if that takes care of the issue. I had read those should be replaced every season, or every other season.

My issue was identical. I could run about 30 minutes and then would start to lose power. Mine never died, but I had to shut them off and let them sit for 20 minutes and then I could get up and run again for another 30 minutes. Super annoying, but I can almost guaranty that is your issue. Mine would display in the same manner on the sync and then you would notice the rpm's start dropping. Giving it gas just made it bog down more. We thought it was fuel for the longest time, but finally found a mechanic that figured it out and replaced the ignitions. Runs awesome now, in fact better than before!
 
Great info, everyone.
I haven't touched the distributors since we bought the boat in 2008, so I think I'll start with Craig's suggestion of "...replace the points and condensers, re-time it and see if that takes care of the issue".
Still would appreciate any links to good sources of distributor info to assist with this, as searching has turned up a WIDE range of, often contradictory, info
 
First hook the timing light and open the throttle some and see if the spark advances some.
 
Hard part using a timing light is finding the number one plug. On a 454 it's, looking at the engine from back to forward, it's the left plug at the front of the engine.
 
So, 2 more questions:
1) Is there any issue with running one engine on the old ignition system and the other on a new EST ignition system? If I need to do it, I would prefer to do one, see how it goes, then decide on doing the other, if warranted (and I expect it will be).

2) If I order the electronic ignition system kit to have it on hand in case the I find that there is something amiss in the distributor (rather than replacing parts in the old distributor), which kit is appropriate?
I thought this thread (http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=128658) told me exactly what to get, as Kevin suggests googling "BPIDELCOESTV8" and order that, which brings me to this:
http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/mm5/merc..._Code=EDM550002&NOSHOW=YES&rnum=BPIDELCOESTV8
My concern is that another vendor lists this part as having a $300 extra charge for RH rotation engines, and one of my engines is RH rotation.

The part number on this one seems almost identical to what Kevin suggested:
http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/pc/BPIESTGMV8/CRU4B
And the instructions mention the different firing order on RH vs LH rotation, but nothing about needing a different part. http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/downloads/BPIESTGMV8instructions.pdf

I can't find anything on the new version of the boatfix store.

This looks like the Voyager system I've read lots of people praising on this forum, and it is cheaper here. Is it the correct one for my engine? And no mention here on RH or LH rotation.
http://marineenginedepot.com/MP/Mar...5.7L-350ci---7.4L-454ci-GM-Delco-Voyager-EST/

REALLY want to be sure that I do this right on the first try and don't order the wrong kit.
All help is appreciated. :)
 
I don't think the kit replaces the timing advance if the timing advance is the problem nothing will be solved. To me kits are a waste of money and time. In my cases it was cheaper and better to drop new distributors in with a new coil.
 
The kits i linked to are full distributor replacements, not the distributor internals drop in kits. I don't believe that any of the one's I linked to use any of the old distributor parts, advance or otherwhise.
 
I'm sorry I never used them, the ones I saw were only replacing above the plate not below. Below is the advance.
 
Doesn't sound like you'd be able to change over to the EST ignition without a mechanics help. There's a couple eccentricities to it.

Change the condenser first. It costs about $7 but prices vary. All condensers are rated the same as they perform the same function. Just match the one that comes out or get one that's even a little smaller. Some mount with a band and some have a small tab. If you need the band type but can only find the tab type, get the tab and cut it off. Went thru that myself.
 
There wouldn't be an issue running one engine with the new distributor. But you would want to have them the same at some point so you aren't managing two different setups (especially if you sell).

I originally had those little kits put in on mine and turned out those were adding to the issue and it just continued. It wasn't until my mechanic replaced them completely with full electronic distributors that the problem went away. Basically the parts were heating up and then the spark would break down. Then the symptoms would show up. Hindsight, we should have put the new electronic distributors on in the first place, would have saved me a couple of seasons trying to figure it out.

My mechanic went and found some used GM electronic distributors that fit on our crusaders. I have the 350's in my boat, but very similar to your 454's. Mine are setup so that the tranny does the rotation flip, so the distributors are identical, in fact both engines are identical except when it gets to the tranny and V-drive where the rotation changes. My mechanic picked up the used ones and bench tested and made sure everything was setup properly, dropped them in and problem fixed! I ended up paying around $200 each for them, so saving a lot of money. The EST's you have links to were going to be my next step based on all the recommendations here too. But, wasn't needed...

Honestly, the cheap way to go is to do the routine maintenance with the points and condensers and possibly drop a new coil on there to see if that helps. Eventually the problem will re-occur as is the nature of these. Or, go the route and do the completed electronic distributors. I wouldn't mess with those Ignitor kits that you can find either. At least for me, never fixed the issue and your still messing with the old distributor from 1986.

Switching over to the electronic ignition isn't that complicated now that I see it, but I would recommend having a pro do it for you. We also put in new spark plugs and wires to complete everything. Now my engines fire up really easy and run awesome. Once warmed up, they idle fantastic. Can't say for sure, but it seems like I am getting better fuel consumption to, cleaner burn.
 
Interesting chat at the local Advance Auto Parts this morning. Took about 30 minutes for the guy to sort out the distributor parts to refresh the current distributor.
He came up with:
Part Description Price
209D Cap distributor 31.99
309 Distrib Rotor 11.99
25042 Points st mallry 21.99
400 Condenser mallry 12.99

None of the parts were in stock, but he can get them the day after I order them. Opted not to order, as the price was high. $85 before adding the advance kit, which he couldn't get, but provided the Mallory part number 9-26804. Searching online, looks like $65 shipped... so I'd be in for over $150 with tax to refresh the distributor. I think I'd rather put that $ towards a full electronic conversion kit.
 
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