Engine temp

Bruce Herrington

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Is there a definitive way to determine if the raw water pump is the reason for higher temps and steaming while underway?

It's a FWC 454 Crusader, carburated, log-type exhaust motor, probably an 80's model.

Replaced risers, elbows, impeller, all hoses and the sea strainer basket, and it stll runs 10 degrees warmer than the port engine and steams; the port doesn't steam at all. If the RW pump didn't cost $410, I'd replace it too.

The water flow seems comparable to the port engine; so, I'm thinking the problem must be something else.

I did remove an inch of mud and shells from the strainer, but didn't make any difference.

Thoughts?
 
quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Herrington

Replaced risers, elbows, impeller, all hoses and the sea strainer basket, and it stll runs 10 degrees warmer than the port engine and steams; the port doesn't steam at all. If the RW pump didn't cost $410, I'd replace it too.






Are the temps from the dash gauges or is this an "apples to apples" comparison at various points on each engine with an IR temp gun?

My dash gauges do the same as your reading (one 10* hotter than the other), but when each engine is shot with an IR thermometer at the risers, thermostat housings, etc... they are within a degree or two of each other.

Second, are you sure the t'stats are the same temp?

Beyond that, I'm out of thoughts.
 
Everything KiDa wrote was very good.

Please consider these possibilities as well...

- New wire wrapped hoses on the suctions side?
- Is the water pump eccentric ramp in good shape?
- Test for air leaks on suction side?
- How do you balance your engine loads prt to stb?

Hope this helps
 
The IR temp gun shows temps to be within a few degrees of each other. But the stbd engine emits steam while port does not; they both have the 140 degree t-stat. Use digital tach to synchronize.. What is an eccentric ramp? Never heard of it before.

Really appreciate help, fellas. New pump can't hurt. :-)
 
Bruce,
I'm in the middle of replacing my Crusaders now. Albeit small blocks.

1-The through hull pickup below my intake ball valve was clogged with shell growth to just about 1/4" in diameter. I reamed it opened all was fine. I replaced this engine 10 years ago due to overheating damage. It would run cool until up on plane and there was a demand for constant flow.

2- Now I'm replacing both engines and replacing the RW with FW set-up, one is FW cooled, the other was RW cooled. (Don't ask..) not for a running hot issue but because although they both ran fairly well, they have some leaks and are tired and I decide to start the season off fresh with new engines.

Below are pics of what I found when I pulled the intake manifold on the RW engine a couple days ago, I found the rear coolant passages on both heads completely clogged. So with your FW engine, this may not be an issue. This engine did run warmer than the other. I guess periodic flushing would have helped here. But check the through hull opening for restriction also. Good luck!
Cloggedport1_zpsnxkcrelh.jpg

Cloggedport2_zpsoy8f8lvq.jpg
 
"The IR temp gun shows temps to be within a few degrees of each other. But the stbd engine emits steam while port does not; they both have the 140 degree t-stat. Use digital tach to synchronize.. What is an eccentric ramp? Never heard of it before."

The eccentric in eth raw water pump is what causes the impeller to bend and take on water - often they can wear out or take on severe scoring which could greatly affect the water flow at higher speeds. Almost all of them are removable and replaceable as are covers which are deeply scored.
Mostly you will not be able to guess the correct water flow at speeds and it is often impossible to estimate 'steam' from one engine or another - maybe on a perfectly flat day with no wind but I have still been 'fooled' by what I see.
Digital tachs will tell you that the engines are running at the same speed but do not tell you if the trans ratios and the props are near balanced. You can likely look the trans ratio up on the trans tag but the props will be much harder to assess.
Do you find that the 'hotter' engine takes on more fuel that the other? (assuming two tanks and no crossover valves open)

Your IR readings seem good so maybe you are chasing a ghost, perhaps check all the way back to the exhaust elbows in the exact same spots.

Hope this helps
 
Jamie, you may be right about the intake being clogged; the strainer basket had an inch of mud and shells in it, I'll ask the diver to ream it next time.

Smitty, sounds like the eccentric may also be called a cam? The pump cover did show some scoring, but it didn't look bad. Maybe another look is in order..
 
Smitty, the stbd does burn a few more gallons than port. Is this significant?
 
"Smitty, sounds like the eccentric may also be called a cam?"
Yes - that is it . often held in place by one bronze screw

"The pump cover did show some scoring, but it didn't look bad."
FWIW - many of these can be turned inside out to get a bit more life out of them when they are scored.
Have to hold it up to pump to see if it works.

"the stbd does burn a few more gallons than port. Is this significant?"
If one engine is working harder it will produce more heat. A few gallons across 100 is not significant but a few in 20 can be. What happens is the engine that is doing more work also often suffers from a little late ignition compared to the other - like your car in 4th gear doing 20 mph.

If Reel Ansty is right about the pickup than that is the most obvious possible cause.

Hope this helps
 
Bruce - Did you use your IR temp gun on the riser/elbows?

Since the elevated temp you see on the gauge is apparently underway & probably at cruise RPM, I believe the likelihood a scored RW pump cam or housing is the issue is not great, as that is more likely to cause a low suction/overheat near idle RPM. At higher RPM, the impeller blades supposedly don't even contact most of the housing and it acts like a centrifugal pump, with help from the hull pickup scoop underway.

Noticeably excess steam is usually either caused by a head gasket leak , manifold or riser/elbow water passage or gasket leak, weak RW pump, RW flow restriction before or after the pump or suction air-entrainment . If it was head gasket or manifold leak on your RWC engine you'd smell distinctive A/F odor in the exhaust. Suction air leak would likely also cause temp rise at low RPM, but it's worth checking for anyway( hoses , clamps , seat strainer lid o-ring, etc. .

Underway, put your hand on the top of the riser/elbows of both engines.. Can you keep your hand essentially indefinitely on the ones on the "cooler" engine but it's quickly painfully hot on the warmer one? If so that's a pretty good confirmation the hotter engine has a RW low-flow issue to cause that extra steam.

You already changed the impeller, and riser/elbows, "all"(?) RW hoses, but you didn't mention back flushing or rod/inspecting all coolers and the H/ex which can definitely get restricted in spite of upstream strainers.
Smitty mentions the wire wrapped RW hose. Sometimes the thin-wall RW pump suction side hose with inner support wire coil will have the coil corrode and disintegrate ( 2 or 3 times on mine so far), allowing the suction hose to collapse to some degree at higher RPM pump demand. But you said "all new hoses." Similarly the large hose from the heat exchanger to the circ pump may also have a wire coil that can migrate with flow away from the h/ex outlet just enough to allow suction to collapse and restrict flow enough to raise temps at higher rpm but that is on the FWC side and would not affect riser temps or cause steam . Plus "all new hoses" .

Raw water flow spec for at least the Crusader 5.7L engines is MINIMUM 5 gallons total in 15 seconds at 4000 RPM. The 7.4 L engines may have a greater min flow spec.. That's a lot of flow, so you can have maybe 1/2 that and it is still going to look like a lot of water in the exhaust- but it may not be enough to sufficiently cool exhaust temps below that at which some of the RW turns to excess steam.

So the 1st thing I would check as Jamie suggests is the RW scoop strainer. Growth fouling may well be the culprit but even A/F paint buildup that was not raked out prior to splash is often a cause for substantial RW flow restriction. (A year ago I changed all my scoop strainers to Groco's with hinged hatches for easy cleanout and ability to apply A/F on the inside passages. but I still rake the pickup slots before commissioning as the yard always slaps A/F on thick and doesn't followup with re-opening the slots. )

Make sure there are no overly-tight bend/kinks in any of the new RW hoses.

Then I would rig up dock hose adapters and back-flush oil and transmission coolers into a bucket so you can see results which may surprise you.(I do this at least once a year and find sea lettuce that is a lot bigger than could have made it through the scoop strainers or the sea strainer baskets.)
Then check the RW side of the h/exchanger. If the exhaust hoses are in the way of the end caps (as on mine), you might be able to just back-flush there too, but hopefully those were opened & checked when the exhaust hoses were disconnected from the old risers/elbows.

Best luck.

I
 
Yeah, too much for me to follow.[:I]

Checking IR temps all along the exhaust system is qa good idea. Steam coming from the exhaust is usually caused by lowered water flow. What causes it can be anything from mud collecting in the raw water passages to loose hose connection that's sucking air on intake side of pump. All components of the raw water pump should be replaced at the same time. What you may believe to be 'in good condition', many times has been shown to be worn. This is straight from the horses mouth...UH, Geo(GVP)[:P]
 
I hate to add yet another variable, but a FWC big block uses a 160 degree T-stat-not a 140 T-stat which is for raw water cooled engines. FWC cooled engines should run at 160 normal operation and up to 180 at cruise (assuming 80+ degree raw water temp). If your guages are reading 160-180...that is normal range. Engines that feed a water heater do seem to run a little hotter than engines without. Steaming can be an indication of lack of water flow, but alot depends on the relative humidity, air temp and other factors. Unless the steaming you are seeing is new and it never steamed before, and if the IR gun temps indicate nothing wrong temp-wise, don't spend time worrying over it and enjoy boating-the season always seems to be too short anyhow.
 
You guys provided a lot of valuable info; responding on an iphone is a challenge for me, but I do read every word and try each proposed solution. Sandy, no worries about lengthy posts for me; I truly appreciate the help.

The IR was used on the entire cooling system, comparing temps for each part for each engine.
 
Forgot mention that temps on both reach very close to 200 when cruising; rpms at 2700. They both steam while cruising, too. Will check out everything this weekend and let you know how it went.
 
Bruce, I spent nearly 1500 bucks chaising the same thing, and doing the same thing you are. In the end, I found it after pulling te motor for rebuild. The heat exchanger for the water pump inlet and outlet had a plastic coating on them, they had both flaked off and created a check valve on the frest water side of the system only allowing a little coolant to run through it. The way the cooling system was plumbed, it had to flow through there, no type of bypass. So at idel and low cruise it stayed at 140, get on it and up on plane, 200 she went, never more than 210. Somthing to think about...........D..........
 
You said you use your tachs to sync the engines. Can you not hear when their in sync? Tachs can be off over 100RPM at higher RPM. The human ear is 100% dead on.

You cruise at 2700. Did you ever try cruising at 3200 36's seem to wake up over 3200
 
quote:

Originally posted by OLD HOUSEBOATER

You said you use your tachs to sync the engines. Can you not hear when their in sync? Tachs can be off over 100RPM at higher RPM. The human ear is 100% dead on.

You cruise at 2700. Did you ever try cruising at 3200 36's seem to wake up over 3200






Good point . A quick cruise around the web seems to indicate a happier cruise rpm for the Trojan 36 w/ 454 s is ~~3100-3400. I'd think 2700 may be straining the engines unnecessarily, possibly keeping the FW side at the somewhat elevated temps you gauge is showing .
But if the riser/elbows are hot you still need to figure what is affecting RW flow.
 
David's post indicates two things. Even very experienced people can hava hard time chasing overheating problems. They can be weird and well hidden. And two, they are almost always raw water related.
 
Unless I missed it, I didn't see any pdiscussion about your oil cooler. Almost everyone starts at the wrong end of the cooling system when overheating. Try flushing the oil cooler out after removing all zinc. You can also remove the entering hose to the oil cooler and pour in some muriatic acid. Make sure you remove zinc first. Replace hose and let sit for 10 minutes. Start engine and watch all the junk flow out the exhaust. This has worked for me on more than one occasion. Good luck
 
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