Hold N' Treat

mixman

mixman

Livin' the life.
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Multi question post. I have owned Electro Scan units. I have owned Purasan units. My 30' boat has a 20 gallon tank first and then a Purasan with Hold N' Treat controls. On my 36' trawler the first refit company is recommending only Electro Scan (I have one in storage) due to plenty of salt where I plan to cruise and the lack of risk associated with highly corrosive Purasan tablets. They also recommend a reverse setup. They prefer Type I MSD first dumping into Type III (Tank) to keep bacteria low as well as smells. Personally, I prefer the Purasan as I have never had luck with the electrodes on Electro Scans (either not enough salt or too much calcium). I also think dumping from a Type III filled with treated waste is still illegal inshore. Comments please.
 
Kurt I used both hated the LectroSan loved the PuraSan after the modifications and the new diespensor came to market.
I always used my 36 gallon holding tank to dump the raw waste in then treated it with the H-N-T PuraSan where legal.
I have never heard of treating the waste into the tank I think it might actually have a negative effect on how the Microbes in the holding tank do their thing. Also the Lectro draws far too much current in my opinion. With the proper tank venting odors can be controlled, if not there's always the great additive called Odorloss (sp?).
Man the refit company is coming up with some pretty off the wall suggestions (just my opinion).
Bill
 
KO needs plenty of fresh air, doesn't it?

What do you think about the rest of this, Danny?

Bill, agreed, some great ideas and some strange ones from this company.
 
quote:
Originally posted by mixman

I also think dumping from a Type I filled with treated waste is still illegal inshore. Comments please.

Click to expand...


Except in designated No Discharge Zones, you can discharge treated effluent from a Type I MSD within the 3-mile limit.

I've been thinking of installing a system similar to what BillyIII describes: effluent from bowl to existing holding tank (Type III, pump out when necessary), but usually from there to an Hold-'N'-Treat (Type I), and overboard from there where legal. In most places around here, I think we could usually leave the valve between holding tank and HNT open, closing it when we know we'll be in our near a No Discharge Zone.

In the meantime, we've used KO for years, on a tank with only one vent, and with a vent filter in place. No odors.

-Chris
 
A bit off topic, but, what about a Marine Composting Toilet?

Bob
 
Bob, that's a hotly debated topic in the Active Captain Facebook group right now. There's a sister-ship to my trawler right across the Chesapeake from me. He put a Type I system in the aft head and a composting toilet in the forward head to try and deal with all options. The issues brought up with Active Captain posts are:

1 - It is technically illegal to pour urine out of a container into inland waters (Clean Water Act rules apply/3-miles).
2 - It is not sanitary or legal to dispose of human solid waste in trash containers.
 
quote:
Originally posted by ranger42c

Except in designated No Discharge Zones, you can discharge treated effluent from a Type I MSD within the 3-mile limit.
Click to expand...


I made a typo in the OP (which I just fixed). My current boat has a Raritan Hold N' Treat system that I installed. Head flushes to tank, thank gets treated by Type I (Purasan) and is discharged overboard. My typo was that I meant to question the legality of going from a Type I into a Type III (tank) and then overboard from the tank. From my understanding of the codes the discharge has to be from a Type I or II. It's a questionable point for sure.

quote:
I've been thinking of installing a system similar to what BillyIII describes: effluent from bowl to existing holding tank (Type III, pump out when necessary), but usually from there to an Hold-'N'-Treat (Type I), and overboard from there where legal. In most places around here, I think we could usually leave the valve between holding tank and HNT open, closing it when we know we'll be in our near a No Discharge Zone.
Click to expand...


There doesn't need to be a valve between a Type III and a Type I. The basic Hold N' Treat system is tank, pump/macerator, ElectroScan/Purasan, overboard. I did modify my installation so that I have a Y-Valve between the tank and my Purasan that goes to a deck pump-out fitting. I've used this in the Keys since they're all NDZ.

As for the Chesapeake, the only NDZ is Herring Bay outside of Annapolis. The rest of the Bay is not an NDZ. I leave my thru-hull open except when leaving the boat. Technically, as long as the key is removed from the Hold N' Treat control panel, the thru-hull can still be open and you're legal. HOWEVER, I don't trust that some LEO boarding my vessel knows the law as well as I. When we're in an NDZ I take the key out as well as remove the thru-hull handle. 30 seconds of effort beats 30 minutes of arguing in my book. FYI: if you do plan to go with a Hold N' Treat be aware that you do not need the full system as you can use your existing tank. Also, a Purasan works much, MUCH better than an ElectroScan in the brackish Chesapeake. I've got an ES and over-priced salt feed sitting in my garage. It used too much salt in MD and when in FL and Abacos the calcium in the water kept fouling the treatment plates. Switching to a Purasan fixed all of those issues for me.

quote:
In the meantime, we've used KO for years, on a tank with only one vent, and with a vent filter in place. No odors.
Click to expand...


Vic Willman told me years ago that KO contains living enzymes that need plenty of O2 in order to live. They work in the tank to promote aerobic bacteria so there is no foul smell. If KO can work without plenty of O2 then you shouldn't need a tank filter. I have no filter on my tank but I do have a 1.5" vent hose.
 
quote:
Originally posted by rnbenton

A bit off topic, but, what about a Marine Composting Toilet?

Bob

Click to expand...
Bob in addition to what Kurt said they are high maintenance and require sitting to pee.
 
We had both. Purasan all the way. Never had a problem with the Purasan Tablets. Wasn't even aware there was a potential problem.
 
Back to the OP:

Is it legal and/or good practice to go from Type I to Type III and then overboard? Would there be enough chemicals remaining from either an ES or a Purasan to keep the treated waste "sterile" for any amount of time?
 
quote:
Originally posted by OLD HOUSEBOATER

We had both. Purasan all the way. Never had a problem with the Purasan Tablets. Wasn't even aware there was a potential problem.

Click to expand...
OHB the cartridges MSD sheets list them as an Oxidant similar to Chlorine. I took a facefull when one of the red check valves stuck when I tried removing it for cleaning. With that being said I was an idiot for not taking the proper precautions listed in the Raritan Purasan manual. Once I started using the new dispensor, tablets and Barrenrivers modifications I never had any issues with my HNT Purasan`s operations.
I really had few issues with the Purasan other than replacing/upgrading the transfer pump to a SeaLand transfer pump. This was the best modification to the system I had done in my opinion.
 
quote:
Originally posted by mixman

Back to the OP:

Is it legal and/or good practice to go from Type I to Type III and then overboard? Would there be enough chemicals remaining from either an ES or a Purasan to keep the treated waste "sterile" for any amount of time?

Click to expand...


I can't speak to the legality, but I'd think you would be setting yourself up for trouble if pulled over for a routine inspection.

Holding tank discharge is a no-no and the USCG (R) might not follow the setup no matter how you explained it.
 
quote:
Originally posted by mixman

Back to the OP:

Is it legal and/or good practice to go from Type I to Type III and then overboard? Would there be enough chemicals remaining from either an ES or a Purasan to keep the treated waste "sterile" for any amount of time?

Click to expand...


I can't speak to the legality, but I'd think you would be setting yourself up for trouble if pulled over for a routine inspection.

Holding tank discharge is a no-no and the USCG (R) might not follow the setup no matter how you explained it.
 
quote:
Originally posted by mixman

There doesn't need to be a valve between a Type III and a Type I.

Also, a Purasan works much, MUCH better than an ElectroScan in the brackish Chesapeake.

Vic Willman told me years ago that KO contains living enzymes that need plenty of O2 in order to live. They work in the tank to promote aerobic bacteria so there is no foul smell. If KO can work without plenty of O2 then you shouldn't need a tank filter. I have no filter on my tank but I do have a 1.5" vent hose.

Click to expand...


Thanks. So a single valve at the overboard discharge thru-hull is enough? Actually, I was thinking about the additional valve more to be able to segregate the "xxxSan" system, though, in case it needed work for some reason. (Not being familiar with what that kind of work might be.)

How well does the Purasan work in FL or other offshore areas?

Yeah, Peggie told me that, too, prob'ly 20 years ago. This boat happens to have come with a vent filter, and removing it -- replacing it an additional length of pain hose -- just hasn't bubbled up to the top of my list. Having one apparently hasn't caused any issues.

-Chris
 
quote:
Originally posted by Billylll

I really had few issues with the Purasan other than replacing/upgrading the transfer pump to a SeaLand transfer pump. This was the best modification to the system I had done in my opinion.

Click to expand...


When you say "transfer pump"... is that an overboard macerator-type thing? Or literally just a pump?

-Chris
 
Chris,

The system from Raritan comes with a Raritan macerator pump. The pump transfers the waste from the Type III (tank) to the Type I unit. There is no second pump required after the Type I as the treated waste is discharged each time non-treated waste is transferred. Bill prefers the SeaLand transfer pumps for reliability as he and I both went through standard macerator pumps about every other season (I carry a spare on my power cat but will be installing a SeaLand on my trawler).
 
quote:
Originally posted by ranger42c

So a single valve at the overboard discharge thru-hull is enough? Actually, I was thinking about the additional valve more to be able to segregate the "xxxSan" system, though, in case it needed work for some reason. (Not being familiar with what that kind of work might be.)
Click to expand...


Yes, just a single valve for overboard discharge of treated waste. I added the HNT system to my existing tank. I put a Y-valve in between the tank and the transfer pump to the Type I. I can either send waste to the Type I or use a pump-out through a deck fitting when in an NDZ. As for repairs on XXXSans:

Purasan - Keeping an eye on the treatment cartridges/tablets. I have a first generation system. From what I hear (from Danny) things are even better now so little worry there. It's possible one of the two motors on the Purasan could burn up but that should be many, many years into service.

ElectoScan - UGH! First, these use a lot more amps than a Pursasan (around 8 while running if I remember correctly, vs. more like 2 or 3 for the Purasan). In brackish you need to add lots of salt either manually or via salt-feed option. There's the possibility of the motors, but again, way down the road. But the electrode (treatment) plates are a real PITA. They foul and need to be cleaned with acid. I replaced mine twice as even acid wouldn't clean them enough. I do not recommend an ES for the Chesapeake. Oh, and you shouldn't have a fresh water head with an ES as then it requires even more salt!

quote:
How well does the Purasan work in FL or other offshore areas?
Click to expand...


No problems at all. Ours has been through the Keys and the Abacos. It only gets "feed" via our freshwater head so what water the boat is in doesn't matter. And with a raw water head it still wouldn't matter as there are no electronics inside it other than the two motors. The tablets do not care what tiny organisms they are killing. While I have an ES sitting in my garage I will most likely install the Pursan (sitting in my office) that came with my "new" trawler. Plans are to take that boat much further into the Bahamas in a few years and I don't want to mess with cleaning electrodes and using all the amps.

quote:
Yeah, Peggie told me that, too, prob'ly 20 years ago. This boat happens to have come with a vent filter, and removing it -- replacing it an additional length of pain hose -- just hasn't bubbled up to the top of my list. Having one apparently hasn't caused any issues.
Click to expand...


If it ain't broke, don't fix it! :-)

I had very good luck with KO when I put a small aquarium pump in to feed O2 into my system. I finally increased the vent size and got rid of the pump. But then I tried Rid-X RV and Marine tank treatment and rather prefer it as I have it on subscription delivery from Amazon :-)
 
Thanks, Kurt. Do I understand correctly that your transfer pump is in between the holding tank and the Type I? If so, what moves effluent overboard from Type I? And you have a Y-valve between holding tank and Type I; what's on the other leg of the Y? (Our existing holding tank has a separate discharge hose for the pump-out; no Y in between tank and deck fitting (pump-out) or overboard macerator.)

Useful insight on the xxxSans. Ours is freshwater flush, sounds like PuraSan might be our best target. I'll read up some more :)

-Chris
 
quote:
Originally posted by mixman

Chris,

The system from Raritan comes with a Raritan macerator pump. The pump transfers the waste from the Type III (tank) to the Type I unit. There is no second pump required after the Type I as the treated waste is discharged each time non-treated waste is transferred. Bill prefers the SeaLand transfer pumps for reliability as he and I both went through standard macerator pumps about every other season (I carry a spare on my power cat but will be installing a SeaLand on my trawler).

Click to expand...


Thanks, again, Kurt. I had missed this post, the first time through... and it 'splains.

Cheers, -Chris
 
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