Holding tank

bushwood

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2004
RO Number
15839
Messages
130
Last summner my Mansfield system failed so I installed a good old fashioned holding tank. Except now, either my holding tank vent at the hull is gunked up or something else is wrong as I am encountering holding tank smells. Upon opening the cap on the tank, all waste is not being sucked out via pump out station. Should the rear of the tank be elevated so all waste makes its way to bottom hose and if so, what should angle (roughly) be?

When toilet is pumped into tank, smells arise as water displaces air in tank. I pulled vent hose (new) from hull vent and squirted some cleaner into vent. It barely dripped out of vent overboard.
Thanks
 
Is there a vent filter?

How large is the vent hose/hole?

I don't understand the last two sentences. Where did you squirt the cleaner in and where did barely drip out from.
 
Sorry. The vent hose is 5/8 ID. I pulled the hose end off the barb which goes through the hull. Looking outside, I could see sporatic drips of the cleaner seeping through the screen, as it went into the water (and it was environmenatlly safe cleaner).

There is no vent filter. I am wondering if there is not enough flushing of water to keep waste in a more liquid form? The drain hose from the tank is approx. 3/4" from the bottom. So extracting all of the waster is impossible, thus the smell? I'm still pondering this one.

All of my hoses are new and double clamped....no leaks. Just smells.
 
It sounds like your vent hose may be partially blocked or air is not moving freely through the vent for some reason. Does is go in a relatively straight line from the tank to the point where it exits the hull? Did you overfill the tank at anytime to the point when "stuff" could have entered the vent hose and hardened? I try to avoid vent filters whenever possible as they become a maintenance headache and another expense that I don't need; in addition, they just mask the real problem which is your tank isn't getting all the air or "goog bugs" it needs to breakdown waste the natural and non-stink way. So, start with the vent hose and make certain its clear of blockage (even water can cause a blockage if there is a low point in the hose between the tank and the hull), as short and as straight as possible. In fact, you may even want to try replacing it with a wider diameter hose.... 5/8 is pretty much the absolute minimum; many systems have 1" or event two vent hose to insure adequate fresh air is reaching the tank and circulating.

BTW, DO NOT use any household cleaners in your system. IMO Odorlos or KO are the only additives that should go into a waste system... besides those that you add "naturally" ;).

Good luck and let us know what you find.
 
I can never understand this debate over holding tanks. It seems to my that if the system is sealed from the toilet onwards then only the vent is open to atmosphere.
The original purpose of a vent is to allow air to vent into the tank when it is being emptied either by the macerator or pump-out, and to permit air to vent out as the tank is being filled.

Example:
1. Leaving some water in the bowl seals that end, similar to the U in a house toilet.
2. If all hoses are good and not permeated then they should not smell.
3. If all hoses are properly clamped they should not leak.
4. If the tank is not porous, cracked or permeated then smells should not get out.
5. The macerator seals the line unless it is running.
6. The pump-out is sealed at the cap.

QED. If all those conditions are met there should be NO smell from inside the boat. Except if it is introduced by the raw water from the thru hull; but that is a different subject.

The vent, however, is outside the boat and WILL smell if there is anything IN the tank that is stinky.
Odorless or any other additives do break down the matter by a bacteriologal process but that takes time. It does NOT work on any recent toilet action and that is why the filter was introduced. It will filter the smell from recent usage.
The filter should be sufficently porous to also permit replacement air to enter the tank when emptying and allow sufficient air in to assist the bacterial process.
If the filter is not porous then none of the above works. The tank will NOT fully empty, indeed the tank may collapse; nor will it fully fill, and bacterial action will not take place as there is NO fresh oxygen

David
 
Never heard of a screen on a vent tank before. Learn something new everyday.

Can you run water into the tank via the vent hose? I'm thinking clogs as well. #'s 1 and 2 go in the tank? Both are necessary for bacterial to function. Is the overboard discharge closed?
 
David,

I'm sorry to disagree but you need to understand how the biology of a holding tank is supposed to work. A good system doesn'r need Odorles, KO or a vent filter.

This article was taken from Peggie Hall's Library of Classics. I can't post the link as it would be a violation of this site's rules. Many here will vouch for Peggy's creditials. The article clears up some myths about holding tank order and how to NATURALLY eliminate it. Bottom Line, add more air to your holding tank by installing an additional ventilation line.

Getting Rid of Holding Tank Odors by Peggy Hall
Odor out the tank vent line and odor inside the boat are two separate issues. While it's entirely possible to have both, it's equally possible to have one without the other, and each must be dealt with separately. Odor out the tank vent line originates in the tank, not in the plumbing, while odor inside the boat can be due one or more of several causes--including the plumbing--but unless a tank is leaking, nothing you do to the tank contents will cure it. Here, we're only going talk about odor out the tank vent line.

What very few people in the marine industry have learned, and why there is so much folklore about odor, is the very nature of sewage-of ALL organic matter--and how it breaks down, what creates odor, and what prevents odor from forming. Once we understood these principles and learned how to apply them to onboard systems, we were able to install systems that are completely odor-free and correct the ones that weren't. Once you understand it-and it's so simple!--you can do the same thing.

There are two ways to deal with holding tank odor: try to reduce it, mask it, and contain it after it's formed, by using chemicals and filters-which has never proven very successful…or prevent odor from forming in the first place.

Sewage-all organic material--contains both aerobic (needs oxygen) and anaerobic bacteria (functions in an airless environment); But only the anaerobic bacteria produce foul-smelling gasses! Both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria break down organic matter, but when organic matter breaks down aerobically, it does not generate odor-it converts to CO2, which is an odorless gas. So, as long as there is a sufficient supply of air to the tank, and an aerobic bacteria treatment is added to aid that which naturally occurs in sewage, the aerobic bacteria thrive and overpower the anaerobic bacteria, and the system cannot produce odor.

A bio-active (Iive aerobic bacteria) holding tank treatment such as Raritan "K.O." works with the aerobic bacteria in sewage, eliminating odor, completely emulsifying solids paper, and preventing sludge from forming. Enzymes do little if anything-a brief respite from odor immediately after adding them, then odor begins to build again. Chemical products mask odor with another odor, and they kill not only odor-causing anaerobic bacteria, but beneficial aerobic bacteria as well-not good, because the aerobic bacteria are needed in the system to break down and emulsify solids and paper. Otherwise, they only break UP and dissolve them into little tiny particles that settle to the bottom of the tank, along with chemical residue, to become sludge that turns to concrete. Plus, chemicals, unlike bio-active products, are also unwelcome in landside sewage treatment facilities, and are especially unappreciated by those living and working near them!

Anaerobic bacteria produce a variety of sulfur monoxides and dioxides (which are the malodorous gasses), methane-which has no odor but is flammable-and carbon dioxide, which also has no odor but can create an anaerobic environment if there is insufficient ventilation to dissipate it. Carbon dioxide does not rise or fall, it is ambient-like the atmosphere, but heavier than air. Without a sufficient flow of fresh air through the tank to allow it to dissipate, it simply lies like a blanket on top of any pool of sewage (whether inside hose or a holding tank) and builds, creating the perfect environment for the anaerobic bacteria to take over. The system literally "turns septic," and the result: foul gasses out the vent line every time the head is flushed.

So in the holding tank, the key to odor control is the vent line; it must allow a free exchange of fresh air for the carbon dioxide generated by the sewage. Therefore, those bladder tanks which have no vent are all but guaranteed to stink; there's no source of air into them at all. Boat builders, boat owners and boat yard personnel who install holding tanks have always viewed the vent line only as a source of enough air to allow the tank to be pumped out without collapsing and as an exhaust for methane (Many even believe methane-which in fact is odorless-to be the source of odor.) Some take the attitude that tanks must inevitably stink, so the thing to do is run that vent line as far from people areas-cockpits, sun decks, etc.-as possible, or make the line as small as possible, or install a filter in it. All of the above actually create the very problem you want to solve.

Think of the holding tank as a stuffy room which needs to be aired. You know that even if there isn't a hint of a breeze outside, just opening a window will allow the fresh air outside to exchange with stuffy air in the room. Open another window for cross-ventilation, and the air exchanges even faster. However, just opening a skylight accomplishes nothing unless there's also a mechanical means (an "attic fan") of pulling the air up and out-and that won't work unless another window is open to create airflow. But the only "window" into a holding tank is at the end of a "hallway"-the vent line. If that "hallway" is too narrow and goes around corners, takes a long and curved path, or rises more than 45 degrees above horizontal, no ambient air can find its way to the tank to dissipate and exchange itself with the gasses in it.

The tank vent line should be as short, as straight, and as horizontal as possible, with no sags, no arches, and no bends. The minimum I.D of the hose (which is the "standard" size in use today, but for no reason other than being "standard" in fresh water and fuel tanks) is 5/8"; we recommend that it be at least "", and prefer 1" or even larger. Ideally, it should be no more than 3' long. If it has to be longer, or if running the vent line uphill more than 45 degrees off horizontal can't be avoided, or if it's impossible to run a vent line that does not go around a corner, increase the size of the vent line to 1" or even larger. If, for instance on a sailboat, the line must go up to the deck, install a second vent line in order to create cross ventilation, or install some mechanical means of forcing air through the tank. Because powerboats don't heel, a tank can be located anywhere in the boat that's close enough to the hull to allow the vent line to be short, straight and relatively horizontal. On sailboats, or any time the head is forward, we prefer to put holding tanks in the bow-under the v-berth-because the hull just behind the point of the bow is the only place on the hull except the transom (which is not a good location for a single vent line) that will never be under water even when the boat is at maximum heel. It's the perfect place to install vent-line through-hulls, because the though-hull is always into the wind, forcing air into the vent line, when the boat is underway or on an anchor or mooring. The vent through-hull should not be the same type as a fuel vent through-hull (a cap with a slit in it), but should be a be a straight open bulkhead type through-hull. On sailboats especially it's advisable to vent off the top of the tank and not the side, because heeling can cause the contents of a half-full or more tank to run into the vent line.

Because a filter blocks the flow of air into the tank, install a vent line filter only as a last resort; the filter does trap the gasses which try to escape through the vent line, but a filter will not stop gasses from forming, and therefore from going back up the inlet hose into the boat or up the outlet hose-and eventually permeating even the best hose.

Check the vent line regularly for blockages; little insects love to build nests in them. And remember-the vent line is not an "overflow!" So try never to overfill the tank-and if you do, backflush the vent line thoroughly with water to remove any bits of sewage can clog it. It's possible for enough air to pass through it to allow the tank to be pumped and gasses to escape, but that doesn't mean the line is completely clear of any blockage.

Finally, the system, including the tank, should be at least nominally rinsed, through the head or back down the deck fill-with fresh or salt water-after each pump-out, and occasionally with fresh water. If your marina doesn't have a dock water hose for this purpose, please ask them to install one. It should be separate from the potable water hose, both should be clearly identified, and the two should never be used interchangeably.
 
Bushwood, everything MikeeH has posted that came from Peggie Hall, is good information. Peggie and I are old buddies, and she used to be the moderator on this Forum before I took it over, when she went on to greener pastures.

Vent line through-hull fittings often have a screen on them, as many boat builders use the same size vent line and through-hulls for the holding tanks that they use for the fuel tanks, in an effort to standardize and to save money. If it is a 5/8" vent line and through hull, you can pretty much make book that the through hull fitting will have a screen on it. This is required on boats that have gasoline-fueled engines, as it is a spark arrestor. But on a holding tank vent line, the screen causes many more problems than it solves. Mud dauber wasps just love to build their nests in those screens that vent the holding tanks - I don't know if they like the smell, or what. But if it were I, and there is a screen there, I'd take an ice pick to it and remove it.
 
Thanks MikeeH for posting Peggie Hall's article.
I read the same article some 5 years ago. I do understand the theory and don't think my comments are in conflict with her article; I even applied her advice on a previous 50 foot M/Y when I converted it to a vacuuflush system.
Ms. Hall, however, omits to say how long this bacterial reaction takes before the smell is eliminated. My dock neighbors were suffering every time someone used our head for #2 and I ended up spending big for WM filters. Imo, pumping into a tank that is wide open to atmosphere is analogous to using the toilet and failing to flush, even if OD was poured into the bowl.
My current 15 year old boat has 2 holding tanks and, as soon as someone used either, the smell outside was noticeable...I made my own charcoal filled filters and they work well. They do NOT prevent air entering the tank (I know because the vent hisses when pumping out) but the charcoal does mask the smell until the bacterial reaction occurs.
Fortunately, my moorage has its own pump-out which I use often.
Also, I recently replaced the original rubber hoses with PVC. I laid the old hoses on the dock and after a little shower the dock stank! I had to wrap them in a couple of plastic bags before putting in the garbage.

David
 
"omits to say how long this bacterial reaction takes before the smell is eliminated"

sort of a multi-part question, but here goes...

The air that is expelled when flushing takes place is the air that is trapped in the tank over the fluid. Any odor that escapes is -not- the odor from the newly added material, but is actually the odor of the air that was over the fluid in the tank that was displaces as the air volume was decreased.

If you have good, free flowing ventilation and your tank is "sweet" ( ie: aerobic ) then there is virtually no unpleasant odor. If you have a "septic" tank ( anaerobic ) then the displaced air is foul smelling.

So, if the question is, how soon after flushing is the fresh material rendered odorless, then the answer is that it doesn't matter. That is not where the odor comes from.

If the question is, how long does it take for a "septic" tank to be converted to a "sweet" tank, the answer is more difficult to determine. When recovering a "septic" H/T, the best way is to empty and flush w/ fresh water, add a live colony such as Raritan K O, then use the system ( you need to feed the little animals ). At this point you will start off with a "sweet" tank, and if you have free flowing ventilation, the tank will remain "sweet".

If you wish to have a "sweet" system, then you do not want a vent line filter, as even slight impairment of the free flow of air will foul the system.

---

Side note: I cannot imagine that a plastic holding tank that is and remains "sweet" would -ever- have tank ( and/or possibly hose ) permeation problems. The chemicals that stink simply are not present in any major quantity. If the system is allowed to go "septic" then you can expect hose and tank permeation. Imho. ( This is speculation, but backed up by personal observation. YMMV )

The system on my boat was well-ventilated, had no filter, began and stayed "sweet" and never had odor issues, either from the vent, not hose or tank permeation.

The quick, simple answer to a H/T odor problem is almost always to increase the ventilation, not to reduce and/or filter it.
 
quote:

Originally posted by KiDa

Never heard of a screen on a vent tank before. Learn something new everyday.





There shouldn't be a screen on the vent through hull fitting but there often is as the manufacturer makes one fitting for either a holding tank vent or a potable water tank vent.

Pull the screen out and discard it. Keep the screen on the potable water vent fitting.
 
Thanks to all. We went back out and I punched the screens out of the vent and used a wire to 'reem' out the thru hull. It seems to have worked.....I hope. The smells have lessened dramatically and a few more pumps on the manual head handle to add more water seem to be working.

Thank you to all!
 
Thanks all for an education on a pretty important topic to those of us who spend weekends aboard our boats. I'm currently between boats (except for three little ones) and shopping. I could have used this info about three boats back!
 
Happy to help... that's what we're all here for. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Old Wive's Tales about the management of waste... it is, afterall, a crappy subject. ;)
 
Bill,

One question I have is regarding the way hoses are run.

I plan on adding an additional vent line to my system, to be abel to switch from chemical control to a "sweet" system. I overhauled the system the past fall so almost everythig is new but ventilation is poor.

Now the dilemma I have is the limitation of how the hoses run. Basically from the bottom of the head to the bottom of the holding tank is a little "uphill". I am likely to get stuff sitting in the hoses for a period of time which I would think then causes smell once pumped into the tank. At least until the bacteria take over.
 
quote:

Originally posted by gardnersf

Bill,

One question I have is regarding the way hoses are run.

I plan on adding an additional vent line to my system, to be abel to switch from chemical control to a "sweet" system. I overhauled the system the past fall so almost everythig is new but ventilation is poor.

Now the dilemma I have is the limitation of how the hoses run. Basically from the bottom of the head to the bottom of the holding tank is a little "uphill". I am likely to get stuff sitting in the hoses for a period of time which I would think then causes smell once pumped into the tank. At least until the bacteria take over.




In a sense, the hose will become part of the tank so that makes no difference. The problem is that most sanitation hoses will eventually become "permeated" (the smell will permeate the hose material) if sewage is allowed to remain in them. This is why it is important to use enough flush water to move the sewage out of the hose and into the tank.

In your case, you should use the absolute best, highest quality sanitation hose you can find, at least for the run from the head to the tank.

In some cases it's posible to use PVC pipe in place of hose but you need flexible hose on each end because PVC pipe is relatively brittle and will crack if stressed or moved excessively.
 
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