July 4th tragedy - New Law Support needed

I get it. I see what Dave is getting at, and I see what your saying Mark.

Us boaters do not need more laws, no one to enforce it. As far as the donations, eh unless it was going all to a charity yeah ok I could see that, but to help with the family with the expenses ehh...

You are never going to get all boaters to get properly licensed. Hell some of these boats that I see arent even registered! They are comparing the water ways to roadways. Are we going to have like a southern state channel, where no big slow boats are allowed?

Are they going to require a water test just like a road test? If docking were part of it, I bet half the people on this forum would fail, judging by what I read..Are they going to fail you because you didnt handle another boats wake the correct way, but did it another way so its a smoother ride..

I want to like this law, but its just not practical. You simply cannot fix and correct stupidity..
 
I'm all in favor of boating safety. Had this law been in effect prior to July 4th, I doubt the outcome would have been any different. Safe boating may start with making sure your boat and passengers are safe but also extends to making sure that you do not put another boat and their passengers in danger.
 
Well Mike when you wake up from your fantasy dream let us know.
 
Dave, the thread is important, simply because NY has a habit of passing boating laws by stealth. The winter life jacket law got no publicity that I knew of - suddenly it was just there.

They just passed another law giving broad new powers to "protect seagrass" to the DEC. Lovely idea in concept, but who knows what the DEC will decide to do to enforce it? From what I can see what's written in the law, anything they damn well feel like. If they find that boat soap harms seagrass, get ready to start spit shining yours. No debate was held where boating organizations were invited to comment, they just passed the thing.

I guess I would also say, though I vehemently oppose this current effort, Fun Time is a member here and has a right to his counter opinion so I don't have a problem with the thread from that perspective either.
 
quote:
Originally posted by BoatCrazy

I get it. I see what Dave is getting at, and I see what your saying Mark.

Us boaters do not need more laws, no one to enforce it. As far as the donations, eh unless it was going all to a charity yeah ok I could see that, but to help with the family with the expenses ehh...

You are never going to get all boaters to get properly licensed. Hell some of these boats that I see arent even registered! They are comparing the water ways to roadways. Are we going to have like a southern state channel, where no big slow boats are allowed?

Are they going to require a water test just like a road test? If docking were part of it, I bet half the people on this forum would fail, judging by what I read..Are they going to fail you because you didnt handle another boats wake the correct way, but did it another way so its a smoother ride..

I want to like this law, but its just not practical. You simply cannot fix and correct stupidity..

Click to expand...


Matt, once again, I agree with you.
 
Is there such a thing as an anti petition? Maby someone should put together a petition to shoot down the petition in case they were to get enough signatures. The problem is they will get them most will be from none boaters who have no clue of the facts. As Dave has said I truly feel for the family but they are at fault here there is no way anyone with at least half a brain could have been on this boat and not recognized the danger of overloading as they did. I had 12-13 people on my 44' boat this weekend we were at dock and I was nervous.

I too agree boaters should have to take a boating safety class to operate a boat just like is required for a Jetski but there is a limit to how far this should go. Having divers at events to protect people that are do something stupid only puts the divers at risk how it this logical? Be responsible for your actions and don't expect others to protect you from yourself.

Sorry if I sound heartless but this is how I feel.
 
First i didn't see any specific regulations on either site, just general stuff about making waterways safer and licensing. Pretty vague

I have news for those supporting licensing thinking it would have prevented this accident. There is nothing in the USCG OUPV classes and test about stability and loading... Stability is covered in the 100t master, but in such a theoretical, academic manner that it is very hard to directly apply it to the real life situation of hw many pax you could have on the FB of a small boat. In fact since the master is mostly geared to running inspected boats where loads are set for each boats, it would not have helped in this case either!

We are increasingly becoming insulated from real life by regulations and warning stickers leading us in a false sense of comfort. Yesterday I was on a 37 Rivuera FB and there was a big sticker at the top of the ladder about checking local laws for flybridge loading... What local laws?? How do you check them?

The only regulation which I think should be implemented would be load limits similar to what exists for small open boats. It s almost ironic that the USCG mandates capacity plates on small boats subject to flotation requirement but not on slightly bigger boats which will not stay afloat if swamped or capsized

Based in what I see on the water, almost daily and year round, I think more enforcement and prevention is needed on the water. I often see boats that are overloaded, operated recklessly etc driven right by various LEOs who dont bother doing anything. It's also an area I think the auxiliary could play a more active role as well by having a presence at popular ramps and docks.

This is what is needed, not more laws which are just ignored by the public AND gov agencies
 
Dave (audrey), The problem I have here is the safety class. We take a road safety class as well as on the road driving test. You can learn till you are blue in the face all the rules of the water. Does that mean that you can SAFELY HANDLE a boat, does that mean you can safely over take another vessel, can you safely navigate through the channels and not end up high and dry.

Dave, where is your limit as to how far this should go?

WAY more goes into handling a boat then most people realize (non boaters). I think its disgusting that non boaters are going to sign this petition. What do they know about the waters?
 
Ok, let the thread stand, becuase it's turning into a good debate and I still want to comment! LOL!
This reminds me of another time I stood my ground on a regulation I objected too.
So quick story.

I was on jury duty.
Case was a person in a car accident suing the bar who served the guy who got drunk and hit them.
The prospective lawyers were interviewing jurors and doing it in front of everyone.
When they called me, I asked to step out of the room.
Me and the 2 lawyers went out.
I said, "look, I think this is BS. The bar is not responsible, the idiot who drove drunk is and I don't care what the law says, I will not follow the law here, so I would like to be removed". Of course the lawyer for the bar wanted me at this point, but i was excused.

The town, the cops, the USCG, the bay constables, the divers, etc were not at fault for this accident for not being prepared.
We can't protect people from stupidity and I will not reward it with a donation nor will I sign a petition (even though I do believe in better education) that is in the name of it.
As adults we need to protect our children and animals because they do not understand the dangers or risks.
How 17 adults got on the boat and not ONE adult questioned the safety is beyond my comprehension!!!

You can't fix or legislate stupid!

Again my sincere apologies to the family. I feel for them and their little girl who was lost.
 
Dave, I agree.

People seem to compare water ways to roadways. On the water a boater is responsible for the wake they throw and the damage said wake causes. That is probably one of the biggest "rules" "laws" whatever you want to call it, that goes ignored. How are we going to educated and get that through peoples heads?

If I were a bay constable, police boat, I would be sitting at bridges ALL day long writing ticket after ticket. Never do I see a constable or cop at a bridge...

There are a lot of things that must happen before "victorias law" can actually take place. We as boaters are on step 5, and victoris law is step 1000.
 
If you want to stop the kind of reckless behavior that resulted in the deaths of these three innocent kids, prosecute the owner of the boat for reckless endangerment or manslaughter.

Another worthless "boater education" law will do nothing.

Mandating divers at events??? How stupid is that?

This is just a knee-jerk reaction, I'm sure Chuckie Schumer will jump on the bandwagon so that he can get TV time.
 
If I understood what happened correctly, the owner of the boat was not even on the boat when the incident occured..I could be wrong though...
 
There are already 4 laws on the books to prevent this tragedy. I know every death is a loss and hurts. But the real tragedy with this accident is: that not one person on this boat is shouting for justice. Where are the criminal charges, the arrest, and the indictments?

Bottom line the Owner if he was on board (which he was as per Newsday), the two individuals that captained the boat and anyone who had a USCG Captains license (as per Newsday several persons on board were licensed captains) who was on board should be charged with:

Criminal Negligent Homicide
Manslaughter 1st Deg
Manslaughter 2nd Deg
Endangering the welfare of a child. (Multiple counts of each)

BOTTOM LINE: BOAT SANK AND PEOPLE KILLED DUE TO INCOMPETENT OPERATION OF THIS BOAT. IE: Over loading and leaving the dock in that condition.

WHY ARE THE FAMILIES LOOKING TO BLAME LAWS THAT DIDNT EXIST AND ENACT NEW ONES?

WHEN INSTEAD THEY SHOULD BE BLAMING AND DEMANDING THE ARREST OF THE OPERATORS AND OWNER OF THIS VESSEL?
 
From what I understand owner was on boat but was not driving at the time of the incident.
Also the owner and captain are both family members of a family that lost loved ones, so I doubt they are going to point blame at their own family. Instead they are trying to deflect that and fault USCG for not mandating capacity stickers and the town for not being prepared to deal with this tragedy.

I agree, throw some charges at the people who really killed these poor kids.

I am shocked to hear there was USCG Captains on board. That is seriously dissapointing and upseting.

I know I have spoken to many boaters about this and not one, not a single one would of left the dock with 27 people on that boat. Tops I hear is 15 people. I can't believe 17 adults were so ignorant and I can't believe for a second any of them was educated or Captains.
 
I would like to hear the OP's reaction to the posts on this thread...
 
For once a GREAT debate going on.

Im very curious to hear from the OP as well.
 
It does sound like the op knows the father, Paul Gaines.
I am curious to hear Paul's side.
Was he aware the boat was over-loaded?
I know he was not the Captain nor the owner and I don't think he is related to the main family.
So was him an his family innocent victims of someone else's stupidity?
That would change my view here, even though I think it should of been common sense to realize it sometimes we trust others to make those decisions for us.

I fly a commuter plane every week, there are times the plane is half empty and I have no concerns. But then the Captain comes on and says we aren't balanced, so can the people in the first 2 rows move to the back. Prime example where I would never know that and I rely on the Captain or someone educated to know that.

Perhaps Paul assumed the owner of boat knew what he was doing.
 
If you were boarding that commuter plane and the cabin was crammed and it was standing room only, would you get on the plane? Would you put your children on that plane?I know nothing about flying a plane but I know i wouldnt get on that plane. I said the same thing in another thread regarding this subject. I just dont see how someone could look at that boat with all those people and think it was safe.

I have essentially the same boat. Is it a battleship? No way, but it gets me safely to where i want to go. Silverton probably built more of that vintage 34 than any other model. Were there a rash of 34 Silvertons built in the 80's capsizing? Every weekend at Atlantique there are probably a dozen or more of those boats.

I had a BBQ last week and everyone asked " is that the same boat that capsized?" and that was followed up by "where did they put 27 people?" Most of those comments were from non boaters. The only answer here is that incompetence caused the capsizing and deaths.
 
I agree if the plane was overloaded, I wouldn't get on.
My point was that sometimes we rely on other people to make the competant decision because we don't have all the facts.
Perhaps the plane is designed to handle people standing? LIRR cars are! LOL

Though in this case, loading 27 people on, I am sure more than once someone said, "where we all gonna sit?"

I think every boater agrees here what caused this tragic accident.
 
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