Planning to winter in SE Florida

T

TimHenn

Member
Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2000
RO Number
126
Messages
346
I have a whole year to get my facts together but I already feel like I'm under the gun.

- Can anyone point me to the legal verbage that states "under 6 months" in Florida your ok for taxes? Why? See the next question.
- I'm planning on staging the boat around the middle of October in Southern Georgia (if there are tax implications) or Jacksonville, Fl (insurance coverage ends there) until end of Dec.
- End of Dec, move the boat to the West Palm Beach area. I need to be close to an airport for work. How is this area to stay in from Jan - April? (maybe May) I've seen a couple of nice marinas there. I will be visiting the area this winter to scope out a future home marina.

I think moving the boat in the October timeframe is a good idea to avoid a winter weather move. Not sure what the weather is like in northern Florida Jan 1st but it will be nicer than Boston!

I want to do the trip outside all the way down, the boat can safely do 250-300 miles a day at ~22kts (more if the weather and fuel stops line up nice) (50' LOA, 46k lbs, 607 gallons fuel)

I'll need some additional offshore gear (Epirb, sat phone, etc.) and a solid route plan.

I can't imagine I just invented this type of winter itinerary, is this how others limit the amount of insurance and avoid tax penalties? The timing seems right cause I looked into boat transports, they all leave the Newport, RI area middle of October....way too pricey for me but one of them would drop the boat in Freeport only a half day's ride to the Florida coast!

Tim
 
teh tax rules may be on the FLDOR website. the limit is 180 days a year so if you leave FL waters to go to the bahamas you can come down earlier or leave later. ex if you get into florida on Nov 1st, you'd have to leave by April 30th... bug if you spend 2 weeks in the bahamas, you would be good until May 14th.

I've never heard of cases where FLDOR "harrass" boaters who come down to FL for winter asking them to prove when they came in and left but you never know... Most snowbirds leave the North East early/mid october arriving in FL by early november, depending on their insurance requirement. Hur. Season ends nov 1st, insurance limits vary between JAX to Cape Hatteras. Then in spring, early may is when most boats head back north.

mid october is a late as you want to leave the north east, it gets cold after that. as you get into the carolinas it gets better. Savannah would be a nice place to leave the boat for a month or so, many marinas, reasonable dockage and not too cold even in december. further south, Fernandina beach is close to JAX and pretty nice.

it can get cold in northern florida by dec. with possible freezing overnight but the water is still warm so winterizing isn't needed.

Personally, I don't see the point in picking Palm Beach... much too limited boating wise if you want to use the boat. If you just want to use it as a winter condo, then it's fine. Miami has a lot more to offer from a boating perspective with Biscayne Bay and the Keys being so close. Biscayne Bay has nice anchorages and places to go too withouth having to deal with no wake zone. Palm Beach, once you've been up and down the ICW a few times doens't have much... and no, I dont' consider Peanut Island a nice anchorage being surrounded by derelict on one side and the port on the other. yuck. :)

flights out of Palm Beach are also more limited than out of FTL or MIA

no need for a sat phone, you have good cell and data coverage all the way, except in the swamps of NC. You cna do the whole trip inside so offshore gear isnt' that important...
 
Thanks Pascal. Moving the boat down will not be a pleasure trip so I thought going inside will take much longer. If the weather cooperates (big if) staying outside could be done in what looks like 4-5 long travel days (10-12 hrs day). I'm looking at possible legs right now. The only place I've been warned about (for going outside) is cape hatteras but I have yet to understand what the reason is, how have you traveled through this area? Looks like lots of full speed passage using the inside to avoid weather and anything else nasty...

We will be back in the Miami area this winter (boat show) more to investigate areas to stay. Not sure I could convince the wife to live in Miami itself but it depends on the area. There is a fantastic looking marina in west palm beach with shuttle the air port, all the amenities and monthly rates are not too bad though I'd like to find something a little less if possible. I would entertain staying 1-2 months in West palm and then 1-2 months in Miami area, that would be great for me!

Savannah sounds good, there must be an airport there...I'll have to check. I know this might be penny pinching but hey, give me a break, I got two in college and need all the pennies I can get! If I limit the stay south of Jacksonville I can get pro-rated insurance for 3-4 months instead of 5-6. A full year of insurance in the FLorida waters is 3x what I pay to stay north of Jacksonville, unbelievable.

What to expect for weather around Jan 1st from Savannah to south florida? I was thinking of just "getting there" in a day outside but this could be a more leasurely trip as I will probably take time off to make the transition. I've got heat/ac on the bridge so as long as its not freezing I should be ok either way.

What are typical outside conditions down the florida coast? 2-4, 3-5? Might sound silly but I'm going to do this trip virtually this October...watch the weather, decide to leave, arrive, repeat till I'm virtually there :) Should be a good learning experience to pull in the correct NOAA info, correlate the weather and learn from the whole thing.

I was in Newport at Bannisters wharf in July. Saw Charmer on a mooring as I left the harbor but noone in sight to say hello too. I think I was in Sag the same time as you early August.
 
I agree with Pascal on MIA or FTL being better choices if you are going to use the boat. We like Aventura or Hollywood; great places to go with the Whaler, easy trip to Key Biscayne and Upper Keys for big boat fun. If the big boat is not going to be used, then the economical marinas west of 95 on the New River, like Marina Bay are very nice and close to FTL too.

For a pure outside trip, you go inside at Oregon Inlet, down Pamlico Sound to Beaufort/Morehead City and back out Beaufort Inlet. You must get local knowledge for Oregon Inlet. The CG is helpful as is The Carolinas section at The Hull Truth. Ditto Rudee Inlet at Virginia Beach if you are thinking about going in there. Next places to tuck in are Masonboro Inlet (Wrightsville Beach), Cape Fear River (Bald Head Island or Southport) via Frying Pan Slough, or straight on to Little River (Myrtle Beach). That covers Virginia /North Carolina. We can walk through the rest if you like. They don't call Diamond Shoals off Hatteras "The Graveyard of the Atlantic" for nothing.. Weather windows that allow safe passage through them are infrequent. Besides, going that way adds way too many miles as well; take the shortcut!

I would rethink your range estimates for a tank of fuel, they sound far too aggressive for the size of boat or speed; especially if you are going outside where fuel stops are few and far between. There are only a couple of spots where there are marinas handy to the inlet, so by the time you come in and go back out again, you would have been better off inside. Weather is a definite issue, as seas can knock your speed down real quick.They can be downright nasty in January when the northers kick up for days on end. Get a copy of the Waterway Guide Mid Atlantic which gives you inside vs outside distances between ports.

This is a subject I can wax on about, but why don't you put some hypothetical itineraries together and then we can discuss their merits/demerits and alternatives.

George
Hatteras 56MY
Boston Whaler 130 Sport
 
<>.."I agree with Pascal on MIA or FTL being better choices"....>>

Quick point.... I know you all mean Fort Lauderdale, but make make sure you type in "FLL" (not "FTL") when making airline reservations.....unless you really want to go to Fortuna Ledge, Alaska. ;)
 
wasnt' in Sag but we started a charter in Newport on july 25... arrived in newport aroudn 1am and picked a mooring, then moved to Banisters late morning and spent the night there

Cape Hatteras is just pretty nasty with shoals extending far offshore, there is no point in going outside there... most folks stay inside from Norfolk to Beaufort/Moorehead city NC. You can run on plane thru most of that section so you dont' have much to gain trying to run outside.

i think it's a shame not to make the trip a pleasure trip... it's not a run that you may get to do very often so why not enjoy at least some of it. there are some pretty nice stops along the way and some unique places.

I agree with George, you are very optimistic in your estimate... what do you burn, about 40GPH at 22kts? so out of 600USG you really have a range of what? 300NM at the most... means you will probably need to refuel every day and here goes at least an hour each day. taking into account the time fuel docks open or close, you will have a hard time sustaining 250 to 300NM a day unless you stretch your days with 2 or 3 hours of night time running. And keep in mind that after late october, days are much shorter. oh, and a tight schedule means you have less option to shop for fuel, which will increase your costs. Often, you can save up to 40 or 50c a gallon by picking the right fuel stops... that's $200 to $300 per fill up in your case... adds up and pays for dockage!

it all comes down to your schedule and whether you can find the time to run at a more relaxed pace. maybe you can split the trip in 2 or 3 sections and fly home/work in between.

West Palm is nice... not sure what kind of prices and amenities you are looking for. the Clematis area is nice in the evening, restaurants, etc... but you can find as good or better in miami. again, if you're not going to take the boat out much then it doens't matter but if you want to go out for a few hours or a day or two, it is really limited up there.
 
TimmHenn -

If you just don't have the time, why not hire a delivery Captain, such as Pascal? Sure, you'll pay a delivery fee, but if it is run inside and slower, you'll save on fuel and wear and tear on the boat that would occur in open water at higher speeds.
 
First, I should answer Glenn's suggestion. Hiring a captain. I've considered everything but the bottom line is I want to do this trip and have always wanted to. That said, I am thinking about hiring an experienced crew hand as the wife will *not* be onboard for this trip which is part of the reason I'm not going to be taking my time. I might take my time on the way back.

Pascal, you have the fuel burn dead on -- just under 40GPH at 22kts in decent conditions. I'm still working all of this out which is why its so cool to get input from all of you that have done this before. I could talk about this all day! I figured I'd plan a 10 hour day at cruise which would burn roughly 400 gallons leaving 1/3 of the tank to put in and out of wherever I needed to go. This would move me approximately ~250 SM a day. daylight is something I will watch carefully this October. Fuel station operating hours is another variable to be concerned with but I will know that ahead of leaving on the first leg. Prices, if they can be trusted on ActiveCaptain, will be used to determine where I would pull in.

For example, a tentative day 1 is leaving Portsmouth, RI (home dock), rounding Montauk pt and then pushing through a 209NM run to Indian River Inlet just south of delaware bay. The Indian River Marina offers fuel (don't know the hours yet) at a reasonable price. I have multiple bail out points from the west end of Long Island and several places on the Jersey shore. This is pushing the range to about 250 NM but on day one I'd probably leave before light through the waters I know very well. This would likely be the longest run of the whole trip. Still too aggressive? My next leg is 200 NM and puts me pretty much dead center in Pamlico Sound at Cape Hatteras. That's as far as I've planned as I needed some passage information (which I now have, thanks George!). I definately have to pick up some guides to get additional information but I'd like to think I could travel 200-250NM a day (weather permitting), 250 being on the extreme end of the range (in my original post I should have stated 250-300 SM a day).

I'm going to use the boat but will be limited to weekends mostly. I would definately want to do some day trips, overnights via anchorage or marina stays. I don't think I'll be able to use the boat every weekend but my wife knows I will try, you can be sure of that! I need to line up visits to places for this winter so I can see what is available. As I said, I'm open to any area that I can easily get into and out-of the airport to support work. We will likely have a car available but "local, clean, comfortable and safe" ammenities are required by the real boss (those are her words :)). West Palm seems to have it all (accept for the boating, apparently) as there is shopping, beaches, golf, restaurants. On premise ammenities like a restaurant, pool and things like wifi, floating docks, etc. are worthwhile. I'm sure all of this is available in the Miami/FL area. We stay in SunnyIsles for the boat show and love it there. There's a marina, Ball Harbor Marina I think ??, that's very nice, probably too nice but I'll inquire about monthly rates.

I really appreciate all the information on this! This is something I've always wanted to do so I can go back and forth about the best plan all day... So, if your so inclined to do so and you have been this far....What do you think of leg #1 outlined above? Basic piece of information is the average/maximum travel time and distance for this trip; I'm not claiming to know which is why I'm enjoying hearing from you (all). Is 200NM average with the opening leg of 250NM being the longest reasonable enough? I know the seas can knock you back so I'll have to make the call every step of the trip. I plan to have several locations identified should I need to get out of open water for repairs or unexpected weather. I think as a general rule I would start the day early (even pre dawn) and be tied up, fueled up by dark as an ideal scenario but I'll have to look at operating times at the fuel dock.

Is Cape Hatteras the only "must go inside" location down to say Savannah or Jacksonville? I haven't studied any charts south of NC yet.

Thanks again for the dialog, I love it.
Tim
 
Bal Harbor marina is pretty basic but good location. Not too many marinas with pools down here.

one of them is http://www.palmbaymiami.com/miami/marina.html which is pretty nice with pool, tennis, etc.. part of a condo. i dont' know their current rates but they were pretty reasonable. good security being in a gated commuunity. on the down side, once outside the gate, you probably dont' want to go for a walk at night...

Active Captain is pretty reliable but fuel prices maybe outdated. I always call a day or two before to double check. for instance, if prices are on the rise, you need to find a fuel dock which hasn't received a new load... if they're on the way down, you need to find whoever has jsut received a delivery. play the game right and savings can be substantial. Even places that are normally competitive can be 0.30 more than others.
 
Ammenities look good, but that "don't walk at night part" will kill an otherwise great marina every time. Since I'm going to be away the wife has too feel comfortable.

Take a look at this marina, this is already on our visit list and frankly at the top of the list short of the boating info I'm getting from you. http://www.palmharbor-marina.com/

I'd like to find a couple of locations and see if she's up for moving once in four months. Like I said we like the Miami Beach Bal Harbor area around SunnyIsles.

After digging around the Rhode Island marinas serving up Diesel I discovered the fuel barge in Newport Harbor. I saved .50 a gallon from my home fuel dock and it's only a 15 minute boat ride to Newport. Had to spend the night on a mooring ball at the very southern tip of Goat island -- don't let them put you on that ball on a summer weekend!!! It's like getting a parking space in the middle of a busy intersection...pilot boats zipping by, just all the traffic coming in and out of the harbor goes by that ball, oh well...I filled up and the diesel was cheap.

I will definately be in touch with all of my stops to make sure they know I'm counting on them for dockage, fuel and potentially a lay over. Shopping for fuel just ahead of traveling is a good idea that definately could save some money. Thanks.
 
Check out the Loggerhead in Hollywood. Ultra secure deep inside a very upscale gated community. Beautiful pool, clubhouse and work out room a short walk away. Plenty of shopping of all sorts within blocks, including the new upscale Shops at Gulfstream. Of course for me, the convenient presence of Gulfstream Park Race course is a major plus. If you have bucks to burn, Turnberry Isle in Aventura is also great: fantastic docks and staff, very secure, pool etc. You can walk to Aventura Mall, the best in South Florida with a great movie theater, if you want a little exercise.

For the money, we prefer Loggerhead. The docks and staff aren't as good, but you get pump out in the slip and it is quieter. You are convenient to both airports too. We find it fun to take the Whaler up to Fort lauderdale and poke around or go to the beach at John Lloyd. The Hollywood Beach is a lot of fun with the Broadwalk of restaurants and shops, free concerts and nice beach. Or go to the more park like setting further north towards Dania.

Man, life is good down there!

George
Hatteras 56MY
Boston Whaler 130 Sport
 
Oh, I didn't reply to the trip planning part. I'd go down Long island Sound. Many more bail out points and just as fast. Plus you don't want to miss the experience of going through New York City and New York Harbor, there is nothing else like it in the world. Hatteras is a must if for no other reason it is shorter. Getting a transient in Hatteras proper is sometimes difficult. Just inside Oregon Inlet and a bit north is Manteo, a nice place with many options. Or you can go a short ways down to Ocracoke, a lovely harbor to anchor out in or use the National seashore dock or the Anchorage marina.. fun little town too. Just put a little fuel on at these places if you have to because it is much cheaper Jarrett Bay or Morehead City (where I am now).

I think the North Carolina ICW is the most "skippable" section from a sight seeing standpoint. We happen to love the low country of South Carolina and Georgia, and usually aren't in any hurry, so typically stay inside from Little River to Savannah. Just keep in mind, Mother Nature will force the mightiest craft inside at a moment's notice. We like to go outside from Savannah by going through Thunderbolt and out through Wassaw Sound, then back in at St. Catherine's or Brunswick. But we really love the stretch inside from St. Catherines to Jacksonville and pause to dawdle at many places in between. Below Jacksonville, arguably Fernandina Beach, the ICW has attained "been there, done that" status with us. Services are available fairly close inside at St Augustine, Ponce Inlet, Canaveral (a little bit of a stretch to recreational marinas), and Fort Pierce, then Lake Worth. You can go in St.Lucie but it is a little tricky and a ways to services. In short, even though we are dawdlers and sight seers, we go outside as much as possible in NC and FL.

I'd suggest you get some local knowledge on Indian River, De. That's tricky, and much better facilities are present at Cape May and Ocean City. Seems like a shame to miss the pleasures of the Chesapeake for the sake of picking up one or two days. There is nothing you can rely on as a bail out point between OC and Rudee Inlet, and Rudee inlet can be a white knuckler. I went in there with a charter captain once and it was all that and more.

Once again, I will caution you to take a close look at what your real savings, mileage wise, are inside vs outside for various parts of the trip. Unless it is dead calm outside, there are few segments that don't make much sense if you have to go all the way inside to get fuel. Others, if you have enough crew, can be longer when done overnight outside at slower speed with no loss in days as a result.

Also, take my comments with some grains of salt because I am a 10 knot cruiser, not 22.

Let us know when you get ready to do it. heck, I may crew for free.
 
If you want to make some time stay outside and skip Georgia.

I too think you daily mileage figures are optimistic.

Palm Harbor is nice. Stayed there a couple of times.

"Let us know when you get ready to do it. heck, I may crew for free."

I'd take George up on that if I were you. :-)
 
Palm Harbor is in a great location and has been completly rebuilt last year, it needed it! the old dock where falling apart... I like the location, you're right behind Clematis with many shops, restaurants, etc... not sure what their new rates are, they were cheap before the renovation.

in No Miami, there is also a Loggerhead marina at the waterways, in Aventura, next to Turnberry isle. pretty nice although traffic around Aventura is among the worst in dade Co. near rush hour.

I also like the low country of SC and GA... one nice stretch you shuodl do at least once, it the Waccamaw river, a 25NM stretch between Myrtle beach Georgetown. Osprey Marina, jsut south of MB often has the best fuel prices south of norfolk and very feindly folks. and since you're into golfing, MB should be your kind of place... :)

Casey's fuel barge in Newport does have cheap fuel (prices at marinas are ridiculously high), but they are hard to deal with. hard to get on the phone, hard to set up an appointment... plus they use a diesel powered pump which is extremely loud and you can't hear your vent gurgling. then if you spill a drop they act like you're the Exon Valdez Captain...

a good alternative is Pt Judith Marina. it's close to Newport and prices are usually pretty good. 0.10 higher than Caseys' but a lot easier to deal with.

on the way south, good fuel prices are usually found Norfolk/Portsmouth (tidewater or P. boating center),Jarrett bay (not always though... check first), Osprey as mentioned, and sometimes McClelanville.

from Miami, i usually get to Osprey in Myrtle Beach without refueling. I usually top off at Norfolk since it's cheap, and again in Cape May and/or pt Judith.

Indeed, it's a shame to bypass the Cheasapekae plus there is really not much along the Md coastline if weather picks up or you have a mechanical issue. it's only about 60NM extra to go up the Del. and into the Ches.
 
I've got to get back to planning my trip but right now in Baltimore dropping off my youngest for the first year of college. I'm going to build a list of places to check out this winter, should be fun (and warm!) to do. I like the Hollywood area, will definately check out Loggerhead.

As an aside, I was looking at the passage through NY city via long island sound and its much shorter and simpler to pass through than I was thinking. This might be a good alternate route to going outside and then direct to Delaware. I figured out a 3 day trip from Newport to Savannah but all the legs are pushing the 250 NM limit and would require a near perfect weather pattern and fuel pumps that are open late in the day to early evening. I'm going to lock that trip in as one aggressive option and go back and build a plan that is a 4 day trip instead. The stops and site seeing will have to wait till my return trip or another time altogether. I don't ming doing the 3-4 travel day trip because the payoff is I'm in the warm florida sun in January!

Palm Harbor transient rates (when I checked) was 2.25/ft which coming from the North East is a huge bargain for a premium facility. THe monthly rate is 1.25/ft which I think is very reasonable if the facility is as nice as it looks online. Course they have a 50' minimum so this might be expensive for smaller boats.

I need to take all this information and get my hands on a Waterways Guide for the mid atlantic. Then I can make some additional plans and run them by all of you to see what you think.

George, I need someone onboard with experience making this run. My wife will not be with me nor my seasonal cruising crew. So, if this is interesting to you I would love to have someone like yourself join me (us) for the trip.

Gotta go out and find that waterways guide, should be one in downtown Baltimore somewhere....more later,
Tim
 
I don't know what kind of phone you have but the Waterway Guides are available as an app for the iPhone. There are also some nice charting, tide and weather apps for the iPhone that make a good back up plotter out of it.

Don't forget Active Captain and Cruisersnet (dot) net.
 
Are you talking about this October or next October? I am going to be in Calif. first week of October this year, but would love to block out some time for you.

You have to give yourself at least a one week to two week window to do this, even if everything lines up perfectly, things happen. One of the great boating truisms is : "The most dangerous thing you can have on a boat is a schedule".
 
No iPhone for me as I'm a loyal Verizon customer waiting for something... I use Active Captain and really love the information but learned it is far from complete when I did a trip to Long Island this year. Since I need all of my options available to me I think the guide will be useful information. Haven't spent much time on Cruisersnet but can check that out, thanks.

George, the trip will be planned for Oct 2011 not this October. I like your truism as I've learned that first hand (put 11 to sleep overnight on a "day trip", great memory! though those who didn't get home that day were not happy at that time.

I think a one week window is enough but mother nature might want to prove me wrong as you know. Even though the boat is new and under full warranty through this trip I know things go wrong. I already had a minor issue a couple weeks ago traveling from Block Island to West Hampton Beach. Let's see how a virtual trip goes this October. I'm going to gather the right buoy data for the mid-atlantic and south and pretend to move the boat. I'm mostly interested in knowing where I will get weather info and what "normal" conditions are in the various places. This does nothing to simulate dinging a prop or finding a fuel dock closed when it should have been open, etc.

Given your recommendations to take in the sites (which I understand) and knowing that I'm still going to make this more of chore (not entirely) to get the boat from point A to B, what is your motivation to potentially join me on this trip? I know I would be interested in doing the same for someone else but that's because I don't have the experience and would enjoy learning while I help.

Anyway, plenty of time to plan even if it will be all for nothing, it's in my nature to be ready and have several plans...then roll with the punches.
 
My motivation would be simple: Fun! I have only made the trip in small pieces on boats that go as fast as yours. On my boat I can take a month or two to do what you are contemplating in a few days. Of course, we will stay a couple of days extra in an anchorage we like, or a week in towns we want to explore, or heck let's make the side trip up the Hudson again, or hang out with new friends we've made, etc.

I have no way of predicting what we'll be doing in October next year. There is a trade show I attend that is usually the first week of October. Our "plan" is to have the boat back up in Westport Mass next summer, so it is possible we will be attending to bringing our own craft south at that time. But who knows for sure? I don't!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top