Slave solenoid for '93 Crusader 454XL
- Thread starter Bob J
- Start date
Bob- Need a little clarification. While you may be technically & logically correct that the (on-)starter solenoid slaves off of the remote relay/solenoid, I believe it is the remote relay/solenoid that is most often referred to as the slave solenoid. The remote relay/solenoid is generally found on the back of the bracket holding the main engine push button circuit breaker and is easy to get to & remove. Did you definitely mean the one on the starter, or had someone suggested replacing the "slave" solenoid?
It's been a while since I've removed the starter solenoid from the Crusader starter -which I believe is the same on the older 5.7L's I had as on the older 454's.
Most people do remove the starter, but as I recall the solenoid... can... be removed without taking the whole thing off if you have room to access the 2 little bolts holding the solenoid to the gear housing of the starter. Those bolt heads face the engine side and would be removed away from you.
Once those are out, the solenoid can probably be lifted off if there is room ,keeping in mind the inner solenoid plunger's shaft has a sort of button end that hooks onto the top fork of the bendix drive lever going into the starter gear housing. So the plunger end has to be lifted , perhaps tilted to remove it from the fork. Plus, there is a large coil spring inside the solenoid housing that keeps the plunger back toward you until the solenoid is energized , so that spring will want to spring out and push the solenoid housing when the solenoid retaining bolts are removed .
In order to install a new solenoid you would be pushing against the spring and lining up the plunger end button to slide onto the bendix fork, then hold solenoid while inserting and tightening the solenoid retaining bolts.
All conceivably doable if room , but generally much easier to remove the starter 1st even if just by feel on the wrenching. When I had my starter out and removed the solenoid, I kind of recall it was reluctant to diaengage. But take all that with a grain of salt 'cause, as I say, it's been quite a while. Anyone else with more recent experience feel free to correct if the above doesn't sound quite right.
No matter what, I suggest labeling the wires & diagramming connections before removing anything as general good practice since what is obvious before disconnection may not be quite so later.
FWIW- The solenoid and spring can be seen at ebasicpower (dot) com/pc/ARCSW975__/CRU4H
and the whole starter and solenoid at marineparts (dot) com/sierra/sierra434.aspx
Or look at the top starter on parts manual p. 76 , fig. 30: http://www.crusaderengines.com/manuals/L510012.pdf
It's been a while since I've removed the starter solenoid from the Crusader starter -which I believe is the same on the older 5.7L's I had as on the older 454's.
Most people do remove the starter, but as I recall the solenoid... can... be removed without taking the whole thing off if you have room to access the 2 little bolts holding the solenoid to the gear housing of the starter. Those bolt heads face the engine side and would be removed away from you.
Once those are out, the solenoid can probably be lifted off if there is room ,keeping in mind the inner solenoid plunger's shaft has a sort of button end that hooks onto the top fork of the bendix drive lever going into the starter gear housing. So the plunger end has to be lifted , perhaps tilted to remove it from the fork. Plus, there is a large coil spring inside the solenoid housing that keeps the plunger back toward you until the solenoid is energized , so that spring will want to spring out and push the solenoid housing when the solenoid retaining bolts are removed .
In order to install a new solenoid you would be pushing against the spring and lining up the plunger end button to slide onto the bendix fork, then hold solenoid while inserting and tightening the solenoid retaining bolts.
All conceivably doable if room , but generally much easier to remove the starter 1st even if just by feel on the wrenching. When I had my starter out and removed the solenoid, I kind of recall it was reluctant to diaengage. But take all that with a grain of salt 'cause, as I say, it's been quite a while. Anyone else with more recent experience feel free to correct if the above doesn't sound quite right.
No matter what, I suggest labeling the wires & diagramming connections before removing anything as general good practice since what is obvious before disconnection may not be quite so later.
FWIW- The solenoid and spring can be seen at ebasicpower (dot) com/pc/ARCSW975__/CRU4H
and the whole starter and solenoid at marineparts (dot) com/sierra/sierra434.aspx
Or look at the top starter on parts manual p. 76 , fig. 30: http://www.crusaderengines.com/manuals/L510012.pdf
If it's the "Delco" type, there's a screw through a metal contact strip at the rear of the starter motor (that actually powers it) into the solenoid. Then the front of the solenoid has a metal tab that engages a slot in the top of the starter motor. You'd have to lift (maybe twist) the solenoid a little to get it to disengage. The slot should be sealed on re-assembly. Do-able as Sandy says, but not easily.
I looked at Page 76 of Sandy's parts manual, which shows up as Page 78 if you type a page number at the bottom of the online page. If the pic is accurate, the "screw" I referred to is a nut, shown below the Nut #4. And again if I recall, you'd have to lift/twist the whole solenoid, part #8, to get its tab out of the slot in the top of the actual motor. Tab shows in this front view of a Solenoid:
Yup! The starter solenoid is mounted on the starter. The 'slave' solenoid is unnecessary as far as I'm concerned. Cars have been using just the starter mounted solenoid for decades. The 'slave' solenoid is only a (comparatively)low amp relay.
One IMPORTANT thing...remove ground from all batteries before working on electricals...ESPECIALLY high amp components.
One IMPORTANT thing...remove ground from all batteries before working on electricals...ESPECIALLY high amp components.
Update on ignition/start issue. Replaced ignition switch on affected SB engine. Did not try to start from bridge because I wanted to be by engine as it cranked. Well nothing has changed except I now have a spare ignition switch. Soon as I put remote to "ON" position; engine cranked. Can't start as I have coil wire grounded. Tried the ole bang starter solenoid with hammer but to no avail. Either have to replace starter solenoid or relay......maybe both ?? Since relay s/b much cheaper than starter solenoid ($54), may start with relay first & hope.
Update on ignition/start issue. Replaced ignition switch on affected SB engine. Did not try to start from bridge because I wanted to be by engine as it cranked. Well nothing has changed except I now have a spare ignition switch. Soon as I put remote to "ON" position; engine cranked. Can't start as I have coil wire grounded. Tried the ole bang starter solenoid with hammer but to no avail. Either have to replace starter solenoid or relay......maybe both ?? Since relay s/b much cheaper than starter solenoid ($54), may start with relay first & hope.
Each of those parts can be isolated and tested to see if replacement expense is warranted. The shotgun approach generally only saves time if you get lucky the 1st time. At least you know the starter motor works.
Was any rewiring or parts replacement done at either helm station or on the engine just prior to this issue popping up? Could the starter and ign wires have been mixed up on say the FB ign. sw. terminals?
This isn't your engines year , but perhaps this 2006 carbed engines wiring arness diagram will help visualize the starter and ign circuit paths on the engine side. (p.67) http://www.crusaderengines.com/manuals/L510019-06.pdf
If the starter had been cranked for too long or starting voltage had otherwise fallen low enough while cranking, heat from the high amperage demanded ...could... have welded the on-starter solenoid contacts together. ...Which would get you back to your original focus. But that can happen for similar reasons at the remote/slave relay/solenoid as well.
http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51325
http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51324
Was any rewiring or parts replacement done at either helm station or on the engine just prior to this issue popping up? Could the starter and ign wires have been mixed up on say the FB ign. sw. terminals?
This isn't your engines year , but perhaps this 2006 carbed engines wiring arness diagram will help visualize the starter and ign circuit paths on the engine side. (p.67) http://www.crusaderengines.com/manuals/L510019-06.pdf
If the starter had been cranked for too long or starting voltage had otherwise fallen low enough while cranking, heat from the high amperage demanded ...could... have welded the on-starter solenoid contacts together. ...Which would get you back to your original focus. But that can happen for similar reasons at the remote/slave relay/solenoid as well.
http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51325
http://www.boatered.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51324
jtybt15;
Can you go into more detail on this sentence..."Soon as I put remote to "ON" position; engine cranked"
What remote etc. etc.
If engine cranked, sounds like bad connection(s).
Remote is one I have used over 20 years. Both ignition switch & remote cause engine to crank & start when placed in "ON" position w/o going to "START" position.
Can you go into more detail on this sentence..."Soon as I put remote to "ON" position; engine cranked"
What remote etc. etc.
If engine cranked, sounds like bad connection(s).
Remote is one I have used over 20 years. Both ignition switch & remote cause engine to crank & start when placed in "ON" position w/o going to "START" position.
Bob, I don't really understand the condition you are describing so I regret I may be of little help other than to share my experience with starters on our Carver. I will suggest that if your starting issue began as an interrmittent problem which became more and more frequent as time moved on I would strongly suspect the slave/aux solenoid. Here's my story.
I had a similar problem with one of our Merc big blocks several years ago. George was with BoatFix and the time and I had assumed it was a starter solenoid so I ordered a starter and solenoid from BoatFix(the starter was about 18 years old and I figured I wanted to only do this R&R once). George called me and walked me through a test to see if it was the starter or started solenoid. Once we confirmed it wasn't he sent me 2 slave solenoids (he said if the one was bad the other wasn;t far behind). 15 minutes and a hell of a lot fewer dollars and the problem was fixed.
I had a similar problem with one of our Merc big blocks several years ago. George was with BoatFix and the time and I had assumed it was a starter solenoid so I ordered a starter and solenoid from BoatFix(the starter was about 18 years old and I figured I wanted to only do this R&R once). George called me and walked me through a test to see if it was the starter or started solenoid. Once we confirmed it wasn't he sent me 2 slave solenoids (he said if the one was bad the other wasn;t far behind). 15 minutes and a hell of a lot fewer dollars and the problem was fixed.
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If boat cranks when switch turns on switch is wired backwards, starter wire on switch is crossed with power on wire.
That would be my guess, too. You have 'start' wire connected to 'Ign' connection.
Both Ign circuit and Starter circuit have their own separate 'Run' circuit. The starter/Run circuit just disengages when the ign key falls back to Ign/Run position.
One of the problems that happens in the solenoid is the high amps will sometimes weld the connections as mentioned by the guys. The other thing that happens is the connections will eat away till finally the connection is gone. Usually happens on the copper bolt.
The solenoid connections should be accessible right in the plastic end cap. The rebuild parts used to come in the rebuild kit. Not sure anymore...but I have an old kit that even has the brushes for the rebuild. I used the copper bolt and disk.
Both Ign circuit and Starter circuit have their own separate 'Run' circuit. The starter/Run circuit just disengages when the ign key falls back to Ign/Run position.
One of the problems that happens in the solenoid is the high amps will sometimes weld the connections as mentioned by the guys. The other thing that happens is the connections will eat away till finally the connection is gone. Usually happens on the copper bolt.
The solenoid connections should be accessible right in the plastic end cap. The rebuild parts used to come in the rebuild kit. Not sure anymore...but I have an old kit that even has the brushes for the rebuild. I used the copper bolt and disk.
Posted - Mar 03 2013 : 19:58:21
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jtybt15
Yup! The starter solenoid is mounted on the starter. The 'slave' solenoid is unnecessary as far as I'm concerned
The reason it`s used is because the wire gauge is too small to carry the current , by-passing it leads to higher current flow, bad ign switches, and maybe a electrical fire
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jtybt15
Yup! The starter solenoid is mounted on the starter. The 'slave' solenoid is unnecessary as far as I'm concerned
The reason it`s used is because the wire gauge is too small to carry the current , by-passing it leads to higher current flow, bad ign switches, and maybe a electrical fire