Twin engine docking instruction

quote:
Originally posted by Billylll

What good is using an IPS drive boat for training as a standard inboard dual prop boat? I thought the IPS equipped boat's did not have rudders?
Bill

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I'm not sure I understand your question. In this case I want him on an IPS boat as it is his boat that he needs to be comfortable with.

You are correct. Ips boats do not have actual rudders. The entire "pods" with the propellers etc connected are what turns and use directional thrust to steer. This is nice at low speeds as you don't need the water moving over the rudder to create control (lift if you will) as you would with a shaft and rudder setup. I center the pods every time before docking however you could give it input from the helm if you wanted to. I don't like the idea of doing so as it would be difficult to make it the same position every time and really any situation where you would want to deflect thrust with a rudder on a shaft boat you would just use the joystick on IPs.

Max
 
quote:
Originally posted by PascalG

A full keel on a sailboat doesn't help turning the boat!!

I like having a keel on larger inboard boat like my Hatt as it makes the boat a lot less sensitive to crosswinds... It also offers some protection to the running gear. On the downside on a faster boat it can result in keep walking and stability issues which is why most faster planning bill don't have any keel

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Sorry, not referring to a full keel. I was more wondering about small keels on power boats like the fins on ski boats. They certianly pivot around the fins making much sharper turns at both low and high speed.
 
quote:
Originally posted by getakey

quote:
Originally posted by PhilipLankford

Best advice I got when newly using twins was to think of it handling like a shopping cart would if you had both hands on the corners of the handle....

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Sounds like a good tip. I think about it like driving a tank.

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My thoughts also, as soon as i realized my boat handles (in tight quarters) almost exactly the same as the bulldozer i`ve been using for 25 years it became second nature.
 
Max I might be misreading you instructing the guy on driving an IPS boat as if it had no IPS controls and was locked in the forward posituion. I can't imagine entering a docking area and as you go to execute one or both drives failing. Lets say one did would you have the time to open up the ER or cockpit lock it in the forward position then get back to the helm and saftly dock it like a standard inboard? I think it sounds like a disaster waiting to happen if you throw in a little wind. I would have him profficient on the operation of the joystick then after he has the hang of it transition him to pretending the one or both IPS pods fail to communicate with the helm. I have not read any articles anywhere that this has been an actual problem. I trust my electronics in my boat meaning the fly by wire throttles and shifts as well as the thruster. Do I use the thruster all the time? As I said earlier it's always on and I might tap it to make sure it's working but I only need it's help when pop up bad weather with winds hit or when manuvering in real tight quarters. I believe it has been said in this thread don't approach anything faster than you want to hit it. Slow deliberate moves are what good docking is all about. I wouldn't want an IPS boat but that is by my personal & financial choices.
Bill
 
quote:
Originally posted by Billylll

I wouldn't want an IPS boat but that is by my personal & financial choices.
Bill

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+1

Like there isn't enough stuff to break or go wrong when docking? I'll keep computer controls out of the equation as long as I can. A broken linkage is something I've dealt with more times than I wish I have, but poop does happen.
 
A bad mechanical cable will usually give you plenty of warning as it will different before failure... Or if a linkage is coming lose you will feel a change and won't just fall off in a few seconds

Elecronic controls, and fly by wire or worst steer by wire will fail with no warning

3 or 4 years ago we were coming in to Fairhavrn Marina in new Bedford mass with charter guests on board. 200' from the dock, a loud alarm scared the hell out of everyone on board and i lost stbd engine control. Engine went in neutral and that was it. No escape route, no time to engage manual back up, 15 kts+winds. That was one of the time I was happy to have a thruster! Then the fault cleared it self It did it again a few times over the next few weeks before I traced the problem to a dislodged cable between the servo and the tranny. Fault was triggered by a cable but the electronic cushion made it impossible to detect

But in many set uPs, fly by wire is a necessary evil, just be familiar with the emmergency back ups
 
Good point with electronic controls there is not feedback to detect a mechanical failure. My Morse Teleflex system is great it requires 2 seperate points for power for each engine if you lose 1 power source it alarms but doesn't fail. However I inspect the linkage and cables as a general rule like chacking the fluids before departing. I know how to manually shift and throttle the boat but it's very ackward and would be almost impossible in a docking situation once you reach the point of no return. However I figure since I have the thruster and would probably still have one engine I could and have docked under less than ideal conditions. I have docked with a single engine & the thruster in terrible weather conditions but I was able to use the prop drag (in reverse with hardly any engine power) from the limp moded engine to help turn the boat and slow it.
Bill
 
quote:
Originally posted by PascalG

A bad mechanical cable will usually give you plenty of warning as it will different before failure... Or if a linkage is coming lose you will feel a change and won't just fall off in a few seconds

Elecronic controls, and fly by wire or worst steer by wire will fail with no warning

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On my boat (outboards) they tend to just break with no warning at all. And they always seem to break when I'm docking. I then turn into a single engine boat with a prop spinning 10' away from the other one and not doing what I ask it to do. No warnings. No hints.

I've got my opinions on bow thrusters, but I'll keep them to myself.
 
A few years ago, I lost my steering cable, the helm snapped from age. I was in a small 16ft boat with an outboard. The motor was fine. I was alone, and I had to run slowly back to the dock, and I had to sit on the transom and turn the motor manually. Not the easiest thing to do, but it sure taught me a lesson!
 
Three years ago a new dock mate arrived with a brand new Monterey 340. He had never owned a boat before and the big selling feature was the IPS system. The dealer took him out a number of times but he only learned to use the IPS system for docking and for low speed. The first time out without the dealer the IPS shut down when he was turning into his fairway. The end result was that another boater had to get on the boat after he wandered onto a finger across from his slip and dock the boat for him.

The tech that came up from Michigan eventually traced the problem to one of the four processors/computers the system uses and fixed it. The boat never left the dock again that year. Last year he went out once and after leaving his shore power cord attached and ripping out the transom door the boat sat for another year unused.
 
quote:
Originally posted by OUV11112

Three years ago a new dock mate arrived with a brand new Monterey 340. He had never owned a boat before and the big selling feature was the IPS system. The dealer took him out a number of times but he only learned to use the IPS system for docking and for low speed. The first time out without the dealer the IPS shut down when he was turning into his fairway. The end result was that another boater had to get on the boat after he wandered onto a finger across from his slip and dock the boat for him.

The tech that came up from Michigan eventually traced the problem to one of the four processors/computers the system uses and fixed it. The boat never left the dock again that year. Last year he went out once and after leaving his shore power cord attached and ripping out the transom door the boat sat for another year unused.

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That's a sad story, I guess by that standard I would have never learned to ride a bike perhaps not even a car?
Forget about a boat!
Bill
 
Considering the maintenance nightmare that most boats are, I think I'd stick with the KISS system.
 
The point is he never learned how to drive the boat. He never understood the why and how of the craft. He depended totally on electronics when that was not necessary.
We all know that the marine environment is very hard on electrical and particularly electronic stuff.
His situation was that of oversell and broken promises.
Falling off your bike is one thing
Running over some small fishing boat with a large cruiser is another. Not having the confidence in your equipment is the bottom line.
On the other hand, many buy boats, large and small, and never really use them.

The terrifying thought is the whole "fly by wire" that is being installed in everything we drive.
 
"His situation was that of oversell and broken promises."

That seems to be a big problem these days... Yesterday I had a salesman tell me the new Ford hybrid could go 200 mi on battery alone. The trick to lying is to at least try to make it believable.
 
quote:
Originally posted by stmbtwle

"His situation was that of oversell and broken promises."

That seems to be a big problem these days... Yesterday I had a salesman tell me the new Ford hybrid could go 200 mi on battery alone. The trick to lying is to at least try to make it believable.

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Is the 200 mile electric range all downhill?
 
Listening to some of the Luddites
here I wonder if you have electric starters?? New technology always has some problems but when I see inexperienced people docking better than most others I vote for the improvement of technology if for no other reason than I dont have to worry they will hit my boat.
 
I was thinking of installing a wifi joystick to drive mine so I could do it from the head.
 
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