Worked on the tank monitoring system Need help

[jwrape]

Ok, so Monday my Dad and I worked on the pump and tank system on the boat.

Run down of the issue:
Originally when my Dad purchased the boat 8 years ago the head worked almost perfectly.
You would push the silver button, the green light would flicker until solid while building vacuum, the pump would stop and then you flush.

Also the Red light would flicker as the tank was getting fuller and then go solid once it was full. Then we would pump out and start all over.

Somewhere along the way my Dad took each set of pumps home to rebuild the diaphrams in them and he "Thinks" he may have switched some wires, but it was a long time ago and now is not sure.

Now when you push the silver button, the red light comes on solid and the vacuum is built up but the pump doesn't stop once optimum pressure is reached and you flush and the red light goes off. No green light activity at all.

Well during my Dad's troubleshooting Monday he switched wires around, used a jumper wire and tried ever combination under the sun.

The only thing we were able to do is, once he provided a solid ground to the sending sensor in the tank, the red light would not come on when you pushed the silver button and would flicker once as you flushed. This similated how it worked originally when it worked properly.
So we don't know but think that maybe we had a bad ground in the tank and may have reset it with our little experiment but will not know if it is working properly until the tank is full.
I kept testing it to look for changes and one time the red light came on solid again as it has been doing and then we grounded the sensor again and it went back off.

Still no green light activity at all.

We tested the green light wire and can get it to illuminate, so it's not a bad bulb.

To summarize, you should be able to push the button, the green light flickers while building vacuum, once vacuum is achieved, the green light goes solid indicating time to flush, and the pedal is pushed and flushed and all lights go off. On the same issue, the red light should flicker as the holding tank gets full and become solid once the tank is full.

Currently, you can push the button and start the pump and the red light comes on solid, the pump will pump until the head is flushed and then the red light goes out.

ANYONE ever had any experience with this sort of thing?

Here are the pics of what I have.
HEAD

Flush Pedal

Here is the pump before and after I rebuilt it last season

Pls help if you can.
Thanks

 

[jwrape]

Anyone got any suggestions or words of wisdom?

 

[bazza]

I do not know the system at all, However what I do see is 2 pumps controlled from a solenoid. I see 2 vac/pressure switches and a square block between the switches and the pumps. For the pumps to not be turning of there must not be a signal from the switches. I see a blue wire connected to the solenoid that seems to run to one of the switches. This must be a vacuum switch that opens when enough vacuum is reached. I would suspect that this switch is not sensing. The square block looks to me like it would have a diaphragm in it to separate the switches from the liquid in the pump. If this is so then I would surmise that the switches must be screwed into there holes with the holes completely filled with liquid. Was the switches in liquid before? perhaps mineral oil or atf? It would be worth checking what happens when the pump is running and the blue wire is disconnected from the switch, I bet the pump stops.Therefore the switch is either faulty, is the wrong one or is not receiving pressure info from the diaphragm. It would be helpful if you post any details of what might be written on the switches. The square block looks like there is something on the lower portion on the hose side. Could this be a fill port that should have been at the top on the switch side?Does the square block indeed house a diaphragm.
Bazza

 

[jwrape]

Wow! Don't know what to say to that...
I do know the square thing inline with the solenoids on top is a diaphram. and on the other set of pumps like this not show, it has been replaced because it was bad.

I'm really at a loss if non of these symptoms don't sound familiar. I might have to start replacing sensors on the tank to see if that helps.

 

[Vic Willman]

That whole system was kludged together by a former owner. The two pumps shown in the pictures aren't vacuum pumps - they're ITT Jabsco water pumps that are being used for an entirely different application than they were designed for. The VacuFlush head system only uses one vacuum pump, which is specifically deseigned for the application. Quite frankly, I'm amazed that it works at all.

So how it is all wired together is anybody's guess. Plus, you never mentioned make and model of the tank monitor system you are referring to. So we have extremely limited information to work with.

 

[jwrape]

quote:

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Originally posted by Vic Willman

That whole system was kludged together by a former owner. The two pumps shown in the pictures aren't vacuum pumps - they're ITT Jabsco water pumps that are being used for an entirely different application than they were designed for. The VacuFlush head system only uses one vacuum pump, which is specifically deseigned for the application. Quite frankly, I'm amazed that it works at all.

So how it is all wired together is anybody's guess. Plus, you never mentioned make and model of the tank monitor system you are referring to. So we have extremely limited information to work with.

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Yea, I've been told that here before but was hoping someone knew something about them....
Don't know where to find the information on the monitoring system. It would be Factory Trojan equipment but I realize that could be anything they decided to use in 74'. I'm at a loss for information...

Do you know what type of vacuum pump would have come on the boat new? If I could figure that out I could potentially replace these with the correct equipment.

As for these Jabsco's working, they work quite well. Since the water pumps are diaphram pumps they have a inlet and outlet and they create a lot of suction/vacuum. The toilet can run very well off just one of these pumps but two build vacuum VERY fast when the pumps are wrking properly.

I have rebuilt one set of these pumps on my rear head, and my dad rebuilt the forwar head pumps a few years back...

I would love to simplify the system by re-installing the corerct equipment but really have no direction to find out what was originally in the boat in 74'. If you notice in the pictures there are two different white plugs with bundles of wires in them. Those plugs, i believe are original to the system and the pig tails were modified to fit the new Jabsco pumps.
i am wondering if that is a clue to what kind of pump was there before. It's a small 4 wire plug and a larger 8 wire plug that connects the head, sensors, and power to the pumps.

I guess I should google vacuum pump or maciator pump or something like that to try and stare and compare what could have been on the boat before Frankenstein got ahold of the pump systems.

 

[jwrape]

I guess something like this would be what would have come on it but older style of course

 

[jwrape]

Or this

But both of these examples above are built VERY similar to the diaphram water pumps that i have now. I see why the redneck engineer of these pumps thought this would work just fine. It's essentially the same thing as any other Wast pump...

 

[bazza]

I still go with my original thoughts. There is a problem in the sense circuit. The blue wire to the switches should open when there is enough vac built up to shut off the pump. The other switch controls the green light. The switch with the blue wire must be a normally closed switch. When the silver button is pressed it supplies power to the solenoids left side small terminal. the right side small terminal goes up to the vac switch, through the switch and to ground.This energizes the solenoid. When the solenoid energizes it powers the pumps and the second small wire on the left is also energized therefore locking on the solenoid, keeping the pumps running until the solenoid is unlocked by the vac switch sensing enough vac.
I think the second switch works the green light. It must be a normally open switch. When the pump first starts, each pump pulse momentarily closes the switch, causing the flicker, as vac builds up the switch activates and the light stays on.
Both switches are not working.Theirs the clue!!!!!! Does the common wire to both switches have a good ground? If yes then I be leave they are not sensing whats going on. Are they connected to the intake side of the pumps or accidentally to the pressure side? I still firmly be leave that its not possible for them to sense through a diaphragm unless the switch side is completely liquid filled. If its not liquid filled the compressibility/stretchability of air would stop the switch side of the diaphragm from reflecting whats going on on the pump side. On the pump side of the diaphragm there looks to be an extra piece of casting sitting under the hose connection.Does this have a port and plug. If so I would bet it should be on the switch side and at the top to facilitate filling that side with liquid. I think the tank sensor issue is unrelated unless its a common bad ground to the vac switches and tank sensor.
Bazza