I NEED HELP

While the commentary here has been harsh, it is on the money when it comes to who has what responsibility.

The over-all boat survey that is required by your insurance company involves structural integrity and over-all condition of the vessel in general. They care about whether it is worth what they are insuring it for. If you paid for this, then you will have a report that was produced for you and that you had to give to your insurance company.

You hire someone to do an engine survey separately for your own benefit as the insurance company does not care. However, even the most thorough of engine surveys will not uncover all engine problems but hopefully will make you aware of the obvious ones. It is not a guarantee.

In both cases where I have done a survey, my surveyor offered to provide the mechanic as an additional service or was prepared to recommend someone if I did not already have one.

IMO, the bottom line answer to your question from what little information you have provided, is that you really have no recourse unless you have a guarantee in writing. Like anything else, this is "let the buyer beware".
 
Here is the exact wording from my last survey:

If you are serious you would post the exact wording from the survey, and the exact wording from the mechanics work order.

If you reply you didn't get anything in writing you must be the most trusting New Yorker I've ever met. Then I feel bad for you but the point is moot because if you have nothing in writing you have nothing.

The vessel is powered by two marine power 350 CID 270 HP V-8 seawater cooled gasonline engines with velvet drive reduction gears ratio 2.5 to 1. The engines appearance was good and with the exception of some corrosion at the manifolds. All manifolds were leaking at sea-trial have mechanic check and repair. Both eninges started easily. Some minor vibration was detected in the stbd eng. The enigne compartment was neat clean and and odor free. The engine oil was clean and to the mark. The engine belts and water and exhaust hoses all appeared in serviceable condition (tighten stb eng belt)
 
PascalG, Thank you for keeping a cool head on this one..

CAPTINMB, You have some of the best people on this forum trying there best to help you. (Don't abuse this forum with rude comments!) If you cannot tell us or anyone else what happened to your engines, then you don't have the information you need to take this any further.
 
Let me guess, the surveyor was recommended by the broker? If surveyors had X-Ray eyes they would be hanging out at sorority houses not boat yards. If surveyors could predict the future they would be found in casinos not marinas.
 
Good one Keith! I can't see inside the engines either. But I could tell how they should run, and if they are running correctly during the sea trial. If you want a guarantee, you should buy new or with and existing warantee. All it takes is a plastic bag on the intake to "blow" an engine. If their not looking at the gauges, Bye-Bye. The 1st thing that has to be done (as everyone else says)is to find out why the engines blew. Its not magic, any competent mechanic can figure it out.
As in my last post I don't survey the engines. I check them externally, check fluids and see if the engine performs correctly on the sea trial.
Gary Washienko, SAMS AMS
Sound Marine Survey

Legal Disclaimer
posts are opinion only and should not be relied on as reasonable, safe, proper or in any way recommended.
 
Guys

This hat the surveyor said

Main Engines: The engines are located under the salon deck and have good access. Two (2) Mercruiser, 340HP/7.4L salt water-cooled gas engines, power the vessel. The engine appears and operated well indicating it is in good condition.

Remarks: The Engines and control systems are in good condition.

Ok now im not here to knock anyone and or blaming anyone the question was is there anything i could do.

the first engine "BLEW" when i was on the boat with a certified Captin who was giving me a lesson on how to navagait the boat..... He tried to get the boat on plain but the boat was "dolphining" he came down on the throttle and thats when we heard a bad knock. M Mec. told me after pulling the engienhad water in the oil and i "blew a rod".. the second one blew the same way only this time i was out and tried to get up on plain and the other one started to knock.

i was not getting on the boat at all ...

SO....... going back to my question.... is there anything i could do... thats all

imnew to this foum and just looking for a little help thats all.....
 
I don't think you have any recourse with the broker, the surveyor, or the seller. What you got was a basic survey as many have described above. "The engine appears and operated well indicating it is in good condition." is not an engine survey, it is a visual inspection and a running test that's all. I think you are on your own.
 
I think your going to have to take a loss here and got lucky they gave you money on the last motor when it failed. Sorry I can't be of more help and WELCOME to BOATING. Don't let anyone in here ruffle your feathers some of these guys know a lot of stuff and will be very helpful in the future.
 
not sure what you mean by "dolphining"... are you saying the boat was having problems getting on plane, strugling, feeling underpowered , etc ?

unfortunately, a survey is merely a snapshot of the condition of the boat when the survey is performed. there is no way for the surveyor to get inside the engine and check the internal parts for wear.

a common failure for marine engines, comes from corroded manifolds and risers (teh big metal parts on each side that collect exhaust gas and cool it with water). with age, corrosion develops and eventually an internal leak will occur allowing cooling water to get into the cylinders and into the oil. but again, the surveyor can't tell the condition of the risers and manifold... there coudl be telltale signs, like rust on the outside but all it take is some cleaning and paint touch up to hide this evidence... even if you have a mechanic pull them out and pressure test them, it only means they are not leaking now. a leak can happen 2 weeks later... hence the question about how old the manifold and risers were... in salt water 4 to 5 years is usually the limit.

if they were the cause of the first engine failure, they should all have been replaced... which is why finding out the cause of the failure is important.

other failures resulting in blown rods are more rare but possible... failed oil pump, low oil level, overheating, etc... again, no way for a surveyor and even a mechanic to be sure none of this can happen...

buying any used piece of machinery, car, boat, etc... always means you're taking a risk. call it bad luck... but there is not much yo ucan do short of purchasing an extended warranty... but then you'd better read the fine print, and in any case, i doubt you'll get coverage for 17 year old engines.
 
Captin,
Thanks for filling in some of the blanks.
I bought a used 15' runabout a few years ago with a 50 HP Merc. Ran like a champ for about 3 months before it "blew".
Replaced it with a used 60 HP Johnson with a brand new powerhead.
BOAT ...Bring On Another Thousand. (or many thousands as the case may be)

Do you have any recourse? Based on what you said, none whatsoever.
S... happens.
 
guys

i appreciate all of your advice. sorry i was a little abrasive with some of you.
im frustrated about this and didnt know where to turn.... like most of you said it looks like im on my own with this one... oh well if i didnt have bad luck i wouldnt have any luck at all...

i must say the broker in this whole thing is a great guy and yes he didnt have to do anything for me but he did. i dont know if i could say what the name of his place is but even though this happend to me i would recomend anyone who was buying a boat to see him.

one of you guys said it at least now i will have two re-powered motors for this season.. this is true.... lets hope my luck gets better...

thanks again

Mike
 
Thank you for providing the details.

It is just frustrating when it seems somebody is only trying to post one side of the story for some sort of benefit. Sorry to be harsh.

Your luck sucks.

I would want more detail from the mechanic....but what can I say.

I bet the boat wasn't flushed with clean water and sat for years with salt water in the manifolds, before they decided to get rid of it. It ran fine a couple of times before the rust came flaking off.

It would have been nice for the mechanic to give more detail and ask more questions. It would have been nice for the surveyor to ask more questions and warn you to get things really looked at.

Unfortunately I don't think the surveyor is financially responsible. Again I might not want to use that surveyor, but they aren't responsible for the engines.
 
Thanks Again... I guess its kinda my fault not knowing what to ask and assuming that everything was looked at...
That will never happen again....Live and Learn !
 
I would also say you didn't get a good survey.

Not that the surveyor is financially responsible.

But you just can't be happy that after paying $550 you had catastrophic failures of both engines, probably from risers and manifolds.

That just isn't the result you want as a surveyor. Just like my survey said have the mainfolds and risers looked at by a mechanic, a good surveyor would have asked you, is this your first boat?? how long has this thing been sitting, when were these manifolds and risers replaced and gave you some warnings.

I'm going to be the first one to say it here, but I would probably ask for my money back from the survey, not compensation for the engines, but again as a surveyor you say it was a success having both engines fail. One and then the other six months later?? Ok...both no way.

The mechanic should have also given you a warning about the second engine, if he didn't again not responsonsible, but I want a pro to do more than just treat the problem, but give me a heads up about future problems.
 
I'm not impressed by the surveyors comments relative to the engines...Not withstanding that this person was definitley not an engine surveyor, I hope there's more than that, such as engine serial numbers, year, name plate data or lack thereof? Also, the "salt water cooled" comment leaves me with the question if the entire engine is seawater cooled - which would in my book require a comment as to the engines useful remaining life being 17 years old. If the blocks are coolant filled (closed system) and only the manifolds/risers are seawater cooled, then a comment about the life expentancy of those would have been appropriate if for no other reason than to protect yourself against unseen internal corrosion. This seems awfully laxed for a $550 survey as that price puts it beyond just an insurance survey.

Do you have any recourse? I doubt it. It's a sad reality but I'm of the beleif that it is unwise to know little to nothing about a subject and then rely 100% on a profeesionals opinion. We should be able to, but in todays world, mediocrity is king and you have to know enough to protect yourself against less than professional- professionals. Or, be more careful about who you spend your money with. Get references as spending a little more to have someone you really trust do domething, is well worth the extra $. Would they have foreseen this? Likely not BUT- they would likely have made you more aware of the shortcomings of this type of survey, and what the possibilties might be. They may have recommended a seperate engine survey OR, they may have advised you to consider a price reduction based upon some of the "unknowns" or thay may have prepared you for the possibilty of what ultimatly did happen.

I'm curous- is your new engine raw or fresh water cooled?
 
The root cause seems to be water in oil leading to bearing failure. Checking the oil at every start is a precaution many people use to look for this problem. Water in oil is the most common cause of engine failure; it frequently results from failed manifolds or risers. All sea water risers and manifolds fail, period. They are a maintenance item and should be removed for inspection every year or so after three.
These failures are very common. Search for water in oil on this site and your will find hundreds of examples.
Fresh water flushing systems can be installed on the engines to allow flushing the engines at the end of daily use and your new engines should have fresh water cooling installed to partially reduce this and other problems.
As to what the surveyor should have said that is open to debate. All he said was the engines were running ok at the time. If he said 17YO engines are suspect he may be correct but there are many cases where age is not the important factor. The risers were unlikely to be 17 YO anyway. I am not a surveyor but If I were I would probably be very unpopular for saying something like “risers and manifolds should be removed for inspection before running any used boat”
 
OK, I stayed out of this one until I felt there was enough info to offer a qualified and relevant comment.

First, A $550 survey on a 32' vessel is a HULL SURVEY. I doubt very much that an engine survey was included for that fee. It appears that the hired surveyor did his job (Hull Survey) and looked at the engines only to verify no obvious issues... leaks, running OK (you did do a sea trial with the surveyor, didn't you?), belts and hoses OK, etc.

From the little details you were able to provide it seems like you may have had a boat with risers/manifolds that were due for replacement and they caused water to get ingested into the motors. A hull survey cannot normally detect risers/manifolds that are rusted out inside.

BTW, I think you meant to say that the boat was "porpoising" just before you encountered your engine troubles, not "dolphining".

Just for the record, when we bought our last boat we had a full survey (engines and hull) done on her. The day after I took ownership of the boat we started our trip to bring her home from Long Island Sound to the Chesapeake Bay. About 5 hours into the first day we blew a tranny. I chaulked it up to $h!t happens (but we were fortunate and the insurance company picked up a large part of the cost to repair).

I wish you luck going forward. Take all this as a learning opportunity and get her fixed so you can start to enjoy her.
 
CAPTINMB,
Back to one of my first questions that I don't think you answered. Did you follow the surveyor around as he did his job or just rely on a post survey report?
If you didn't follow him around, that is a MUST! Become his shadow and if you don't ask at least 40-50 questions, you're not doing your job as a boat purchaser.
 
I did follow him around he did look at both engins checke to see if water was in oil and what not.. we took it out for test run all gauges were observed while we were on the go everything checked out ok..im not to educated in this area of boating (if you couldnt guess that by now) but i jsut graduated from the school of hard knocks.....I was never told there were diffrent levels of surveys if i did things i guess would be diffrent....

Thanks

Mike
 
Like you said, you just got a well earned degree.

I had a boat surveyed once that my surveyor missed something he shouldn't have. He gave me back his fee plus $500. Didn't come anywhere close to paying for the work that needed to be done but it helped.

In your case, I still don't think you have any recourse but you might at least tell the surveyor what happened. Unlike my surveyor, I don't think yours missed any obvious problems.
 
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