Need to purchase a new toilet
- Thread starter foggysail
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Eric--
See if anyone can help you measure the current to the toilet. There are two ways to do this, one is with a DC current meter and the other is with a resistor shunt. The shunt will be a very low value resistor in series with the toilet's power. The current is equal to the voltage, measured with a digital volt meter, across the resistor divided by the resistance value.
You should have 18 amperes or close to that value IF YOU HAVE A 12VDC motor. The 24vdc motors draw about 10 amperes. If it is at all possible to measure the current, it will help a great deal trouble shooting your problem.
Foggy
See if anyone can help you measure the current to the toilet. There are two ways to do this, one is with a DC current meter and the other is with a resistor shunt. The shunt will be a very low value resistor in series with the toilet's power. The current is equal to the voltage, measured with a digital volt meter, across the resistor divided by the resistance value.
You should have 18 amperes or close to that value IF YOU HAVE A 12VDC motor. The 24vdc motors draw about 10 amperes. If it is at all possible to measure the current, it will help a great deal trouble shooting your problem.
Foggy
A downhill run with no vented loop maybe draining or siphoning your PuraSan dry causing the airlock problem I have been describing. However mine was caused by the 1st chamber being dry and the 2nd being full with my PuraSan discharge being well below the waterline. You shouldn't need a tech to crack the mixer cap on the PuraSan just slowly loosen it if you can reach it and listen. If you start to hear air I think it is what I am saying if you feel water starting to escape just close the mixer it probably isn't the problem I think it might be.
Bill
Foggy another point to keep in mind he also has the PuraSan which draws additional current, I believe in his current configuration when the head flushes the PuraSan cycles perhaps I am wrong.
If so the peak DC current demand could be fairly high.
Bill
If so the peak DC current demand could be fairly high.
Bill
We will check the amp draw. We did check voltage and that was OK. I have a separate button to start the run on the PuraSan cycle. So we don't have both the ME and it running at the same time. The wire gauge is all overkill as we re-used the wires that were in place from the previous LectraSan install.
How would we test what voltage the ME motor really is? We have now had several suggestions that I may have, in error, a 24v head that was marked and sold as 12v. I'm tempted to move my Sea Era from the forward head to the aft head and see how it behaves as compared to the ME with the existing setup.
I want this drama to be over with.
How would we test what voltage the ME motor really is? We have now had several suggestions that I may have, in error, a 24v head that was marked and sold as 12v. I'm tempted to move my Sea Era from the forward head to the aft head and see how it behaves as compared to the ME with the existing setup.
I want this drama to be over with.
Eric---
I cannot tell you where---it is on your boat. Also I don't know how you turn your toilet on, I am taking the simple approach with whatever I order and that will be soon. I need to learn if the thing will fit where I intend it to be. So getting back to your situation, somehow you turn your toilet on. Find that wire, most likely it will be only one wire to and one wire from the toilet. You should be able to measure the voltage at the switch that turns it into the run mode. The best measurement is made between the switch that energizes the thing and the return wire from it....just as you would test a battery voltage.
The reason I asked in my earlier post if there was an electric toilet there before was my concern about the wire size. You answered that your wire size is overkill, so we can forget about that. You might find the voltage at the toilet itself or across the wires that directly feed the toilet. The hard job will be measure the current. It is an important measurement just be sure to avoid any other load as Bill point out.
By the way, I said earlier that a 24vdc toilet draws 10 amperes BUT THAT IS WHEN IT IS POWER WITH 24VDC! With 12 volts, it will be well under 10 amperes, maybe between 4-6 amps.
Moving the Sea Era would only verify your wiring. But heck, you can do that with a volt meter a heck of a lot easier.
OH! My boat has a current meter on at the load center for the DC loads!!! You might have one also!!!! Geez--- if you have one, that will make your measurement a piece of cake to make. Just make sure the only load is the you know what! You do not need an exotic reading!
Foggy
I cannot tell you where---it is on your boat. Also I don't know how you turn your toilet on, I am taking the simple approach with whatever I order and that will be soon. I need to learn if the thing will fit where I intend it to be. So getting back to your situation, somehow you turn your toilet on. Find that wire, most likely it will be only one wire to and one wire from the toilet. You should be able to measure the voltage at the switch that turns it into the run mode. The best measurement is made between the switch that energizes the thing and the return wire from it....just as you would test a battery voltage.
The reason I asked in my earlier post if there was an electric toilet there before was my concern about the wire size. You answered that your wire size is overkill, so we can forget about that. You might find the voltage at the toilet itself or across the wires that directly feed the toilet. The hard job will be measure the current. It is an important measurement just be sure to avoid any other load as Bill point out.
By the way, I said earlier that a 24vdc toilet draws 10 amperes BUT THAT IS WHEN IT IS POWER WITH 24VDC! With 12 volts, it will be well under 10 amperes, maybe between 4-6 amps.
Moving the Sea Era would only verify your wiring. But heck, you can do that with a volt meter a heck of a lot easier.
OH! My boat has a current meter on at the load center for the DC loads!!! You might have one also!!!! Geez--- if you have one, that will make your measurement a piece of cake to make. Just make sure the only load is the you know what! You do not need an exotic reading!
Foggy
Foggy what are you waiting for get an ME if you Google Raritan Marline Elegance Eric appears to be the only negative post about the freshwater ME. I don't blame him for being upset but I think he should be upset with the installation not Raritan.
I almost guarantee his installer (hopefully not regular marine mechanics) installed the system wrong. I would bet $100 to his charity if he is right about it being a 24VDC unit and I am wrong about the combination ME/PuraSan and the way it is installed. The control panels and relays probably wouldn't work if it were a 24VDC ME in addition to a slow pump but no air would be evident. This is pretty obvious in that his front system is actually entirely different then the rear system plumbing wise. If he were to swap the heads I believe he would still have the same problem and waste a lot of time. Eric can you point me to the forum or posts where anyone said Raritan shipped 24VDC motor pumps on the Marine Elegance discharge pump or mislabeled the ME boxes? I can see the mix up on the dual water raw water pump only but that is not the option he has. I find it hard to believe it was not a properly assembled 12VDC Marine Elegance knowing Raritan's quality control.
Bill
I almost guarantee his installer (hopefully not regular marine mechanics) installed the system wrong. I would bet $100 to his charity if he is right about it being a 24VDC unit and I am wrong about the combination ME/PuraSan and the way it is installed. The control panels and relays probably wouldn't work if it were a 24VDC ME in addition to a slow pump but no air would be evident. This is pretty obvious in that his front system is actually entirely different then the rear system plumbing wise. If he were to swap the heads I believe he would still have the same problem and waste a lot of time. Eric can you point me to the forum or posts where anyone said Raritan shipped 24VDC motor pumps on the Marine Elegance discharge pump or mislabeled the ME boxes? I can see the mix up on the dual water raw water pump only but that is not the option he has. I find it hard to believe it was not a properly assembled 12VDC Marine Elegance knowing Raritan's quality control.
Bill
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I might be wrong, but here's what I think is an easy way to see if this is a power problem or a mis-labeled 24-volt unit:
Cut the wires and connect them to a jump-start battery or other 12v source right at the head and see how it behaves.
Cut the wires and connect them to a jump-start battery or other 12v source right at the head and see how it behaves.
2 words would really help diagnose this, "Mixer test" followed by "bucket test". If his voltage hasn't dropped I doubt it's from the lack of DC current if it was a current draw issue due to too small wires the voltage would drop more then 10% when the head was flushed.
Ideally since we are dealing with electronics in addition to a pump a voltage drop of no more then 3% would be ideal.
Bill
Ideally since we are dealing with electronics in addition to a pump a voltage drop of no more then 3% would be ideal.
Bill
Bill--
I need to get to my boat and measure where the toilet is to be. Size is my only reservation. Just been too busy to get down there, will be there sometime this week to measure. Remember, Elegance's bowl is slightly larger than the Sea Era.
Just as soon as I know that it fits, I will have it on order.
Foggy
Bill, I am sure we will like the bowl size, it whether we will have a problem with the shower and the doorway which are verrrry close the existing toilet. And that POS (almost literally) is about to say "goodbye!"
Foggy
Foggy
Wifey and I got to the boat this afternoon. Made measurements then headed for West Marine nearby. Placed our special order for 15" base, (the higher unit), straight back, white and with a push button switch. It should arrive sometime next week. Tomorrow we are looking at flooring for toilet area. It will not require much, I want to have it installed prior to installing the toilet.
Foggy
Foggy
Here is what we did today:
We loosened the center plug on the PuraSan, no pressure there. Mechanic ran a new 1/2" water supply line directly from the boat's FW pump to the ME to increase the amount of fresh water supply coming in which does seem to help. (remember the boat is plumbed with 3/8" copper) We rechecked the voltage drop at the toilet during the flush, it was minimal.
Mechanic was hoping for a return phone call from Raritan rep while he was on the boat so he could review the entire install. He was on the boat all day doing other projects and the Raritan guy never called. In recent days, the mechanic was aboard 2 other boats with ME heads and notes that the flush action was "about the same" on the others as compared to mine.
So in the absence of further wisdom from Raritan it pretty much looks like it is what it is. I'll continue to burp it like a baby until I can't tolerate it anymore at which point I guess I will pitch it in the dumpster and buy something else.
I really like the Sea Era in my forward head. It works great. Absent a mandate from my "significant other" who much prefers the look and feel of the ME, I would be yanking it out of the master head tomorrow and replacing it with another Sea Era.
We loosened the center plug on the PuraSan, no pressure there. Mechanic ran a new 1/2" water supply line directly from the boat's FW pump to the ME to increase the amount of fresh water supply coming in which does seem to help. (remember the boat is plumbed with 3/8" copper) We rechecked the voltage drop at the toilet during the flush, it was minimal.
Mechanic was hoping for a return phone call from Raritan rep while he was on the boat so he could review the entire install. He was on the boat all day doing other projects and the Raritan guy never called. In recent days, the mechanic was aboard 2 other boats with ME heads and notes that the flush action was "about the same" on the others as compared to mine.
So in the absence of further wisdom from Raritan it pretty much looks like it is what it is. I'll continue to burp it like a baby until I can't tolerate it anymore at which point I guess I will pitch it in the dumpster and buy something else.
I really like the Sea Era in my forward head. It works great. Absent a mandate from my "significant other" who much prefers the look and feel of the ME, I would be yanking it out of the master head tomorrow and replacing it with another Sea Era.
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Today, I replaced an old Crown with a new ME, raw water flush,,,,,no problems and I got my 12vdc off the Purasan....wired it to start the Purasan when flushed and also converted the Purasan over to a 1203 model to allow fresh water into the tablet canister....after about the 3rd trip into the hull, I wonder why I am doing this
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- 1,800
Assuming that you indeed have a 12 volt discharge pump motor on the Marine Elegance, then the problem is in the plumbing between the outlet from the head and the through-hull fitting. If a normal 12 volt Marine Elegance draws 18 amps while running, if they gave you a 24 volt model in error, it will draw less than 10 amps while running - roughly half the amperage of a 12 volt model. However, they are all tested before they leave the factory, so I doubt that's the case.
My strong suspicion is that you have a mineral buildup inside the plumbing lines that is restricting the flow. Calcium carbonate is a mineral that is in solution in salt (and semi-salt) water. It precipitates out of the water and builds up inside all plumbing, fittings, through hulls, etc. in much the way that old galvanized pipes at home used to get a rust buildup inside them. Eventually the passageway inside becomes so small that you can't get a pencil through it. So if you didn't change out your hoses and fittings when swapping heads, I'd take a serious look in that direction. Calcium carbonate is a white/gray color and it looks a lot like hardened concrete. It can be dissolved with muriatic acid, or Raritan's product, "Cleans Hoses."
That's another problem that shouldn't repeat after switching over to a pressurized fresh water flushing head.
My strong suspicion is that you have a mineral buildup inside the plumbing lines that is restricting the flow. Calcium carbonate is a mineral that is in solution in salt (and semi-salt) water. It precipitates out of the water and builds up inside all plumbing, fittings, through hulls, etc. in much the way that old galvanized pipes at home used to get a rust buildup inside them. Eventually the passageway inside becomes so small that you can't get a pencil through it. So if you didn't change out your hoses and fittings when swapping heads, I'd take a serious look in that direction. Calcium carbonate is a white/gray color and it looks a lot like hardened concrete. It can be dissolved with muriatic acid, or Raritan's product, "Cleans Hoses."
That's another problem that shouldn't repeat after switching over to a pressurized fresh water flushing head.
Vic, I was concerned he had a situation like I had with my PuraSan where it would drain back into the holding tank. Also my discharge is almost centerline under the hull. I would build pressure in the PuraSan that would lock the (HNT Macerator) transfer pump or pop the DC breaker. If I slowly unscrewed the mixer cap I could hear and smell the air pressure. I got rid of the problems by installing an anti siphon loop and a check valve on the intake side of the HNT controlled PuraSan and an anti siphon to the below deck discharge seacock. I am using my own 36 gallon properly vented holding tank. My PuraSan is located about 18" above the transfer pump and about 24" above the holding tank outlet. He has his ME plumbed directly into a PuraSan. When I saw the air bubbles in his ME bowl UTube video I thought he might have a back pressure problem with the combination of the ME with no holding tank dumping directly into the PuraSan. I still don't have a good understanding of how his hoses are run uphill or downhill? I do think his discharge from the PuraSan is above the waterline.
My ME has a short downhill run (less then 3 feet) to the holding tank and still flushes like the day I purchased it.
Bill
My ME has a short downhill run (less then 3 feet) to the holding tank and still flushes like the day I purchased it.
Bill